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What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

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Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#631

Post by zpeti »

JW_00000 wrote: post #623
xp84 wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, Trump is doing things he openly announced he would do for at least a year. So all of this is either a result of robust public support for his policies, or, (my preferred explanation) an even more robust public repudiation of the only alternative that was put forward by the other party, a candidate famous for dropping out before Iowa in 2020 but somehow was coronated the nominee without any voter…

> The thing about democracy is, every person is going to sometimes wildly disagree with what the elected officials do. Declaring it a 'coup' is as silly as [...] The reason people are calling this a coup is not (only) because they disagree with what Trump/Musk are doing, but because their actions are illegal. A president is still expected to follow the rule of law and respect separation of powers. If there are no mor…

Who says they are illegal? Can you cite some sources please? Like actual legal experts, not the guardian.

As far as I know, the chevron deference ruling makes it easily arguable that these agencies don't necessarily have any legal standing anyway.

The 8 month buyout was completely legal, Clinton did the same.

I actually find it highly unlikely any of this is illegal, it's just completely unbearable to anyone who is part of the bureaucracy. But prove me wrong. Show me the legal opinions.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#632

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

username223 wrote: post #140
lanstin wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So should we move to Thailand or Canada or ???

Canada, the EU, Australia, ... Places with solid research institutions and less-dysfunctional governments.

The problem is that academic hiring is anemic in those places (as it will be in the US very soon, once Trump is done wrecking the NIH, NSF, etc.).

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#633

Post by MandieD »

brylie wrote: post #497
jmward01 wrote: post #490

This is a coup and we are calmly debating budgets. Debating the % of budget and how useful organization x is and if y will still get grant money, and, and, and... All of this is ignoring the big elephant in the room that there is one single person deciding everything that happens in government as if they were a king. The right thing to be debating is how we can stop this from continuing and how we can hold those resp…

As an expat in the EU, I have a surreal sense of being a bystander at an ongoing emergency scene. I don’t want to be yet another gawker as this situation is unfolding but am struggling to come up with actions that are within my power to take as a form of protest, resistance, or solidarity. What are some practical actions that we can take to resist these sweeping changes?

If you're in Germany or know some Germans, talk as much as you can about how this is what Musk wants to do via the AfD to us here. The election is a little over two weeks away. Right now, the CDU/CSU ("normal" conservatives) look to be getting the largest number of votes, but nowhere near enough to govern on their own. They've been a little too flirty with the AfD (currently in second place), and the worst thing that could happen is that they forget what they learned in school about what happened to the centrist and conservative parties in the early 1930s, and take the AfD as their coalition partner instead of trying to work something out with the SPD and Greens.

There's a reason that Germany's current main center-right parties were both born after the war.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#634

Post by intended »

brylie wrote: post #497
jmward01 wrote: post #490

This is a coup and we are calmly debating budgets. Debating the % of budget and how useful organization x is and if y will still get grant money, and, and, and... All of this is ignoring the big elephant in the room that there is one single person deciding everything that happens in government as if they were a king. The right thing to be debating is how we can stop this from continuing and how we can hold those resp…

As an expat in the EU, I have a surreal sense of being a bystander at an ongoing emergency scene. I don’t want to be yet another gawker as this situation is unfolding but am struggling to come up with actions that are within my power to take as a form of protest, resistance, or solidarity. What are some practical actions that we can take to resist these sweeping changes?

I have a suggestion - at least one of several, which is to understand why we got here. The fact that this is escalating since cable TV, Murdoch, and the internet is not a coincidences.

Democracies globally are facing a similar problem, which is an abuse of a core democractic principle: Free speech.

Free speech is often valued in and of itself. However, free speech in itself is only a tool that serves a greater purpose, which is to enable the search for truth. Free speech is the goal of exchanging ideas between peoples, to foster competition in thought so that collectively we can understand our shared reality.

If such a market place were to become inefficient, or if such a market place were to resolve itself to serve the most attention grabbing takes, we would see much of what the media carries.

THIS ISNT the problem you face! This is the problem we discuss!

The problem is when someone combines the media with a political party. The media itself has no recourse but to play the game of advertizing to survive.

But once it is in service of an entity, then you can create your own justifications for war, and then declare victory yourselves.

This makes the most mercenary of politics the most succesful. It is the natural recourse of people who want to win at all costs. It is far more efficient than doing economic research to understand the pros and cons of a decision.

We can solve the problems we all mutuall face. There is more to life than our polarization.

However, if we are pulled between two magnets, and our goal is to not be pulled apart - then the magnets need to be addresed.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#635

Post by Cthulhu_ »

sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #565
nlitened wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deciding everything that happens in government as if they were a king Isn’t it what the head of executive branch supposed to mean? Trump does exactly how he promised he would do if you elected him, and you guys elected him overwhelmingly to do exactly that.

>Isn’t it what the head of executive branch supposed to mean? In a nation governed by a constitution and laws, absofuckinglutely not. The chief executive is supposed to operate within the bounds of the constitution and the laws created under it.

Supposed to, but the consequences for not doing so are... overly complicated, see the various impeachments and court cases he's already had and defeated.

The bounds and laws should have been finetuned long ago, reducing the power of the President on the one side, and reforming the government to be more representative instead of a two party Us vs Them system. But that is also a democratic process and neither side has had a majority or incentive to do so.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#636

Post by intended »

brylie wrote: post #607
3D30497420 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hope the US gets bad enough that people in the EU notice and decide they don't want to go down the same route? Honestly though, I'm in the same situation and I don't know. I did just start paid subscriptions to several media outlets that have been doing good reporting on the situation (Guardian, Verge). I unsubscribed to the Washington Post after they pulled their Harris endorsement (which was appalling), but their c…

That makes sense. Time and money are our most effective (and scarce) resources.

Time, money and labour.

The parties turn on people who show up to do the work. There is a remarkable amount people can achieve if they show up as people who are willing to learn, do the work, and have their own eyes and ears open.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#637

Post by hmmm-i-wonder »

scarab92 wrote: post #513
xp84 wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, Trump is doing things he openly announced he would do for at least a year. So all of this is either a result of robust public support for his policies, or, (my preferred explanation) an even more robust public repudiation of the only alternative that was put forward by the other party, a candidate famous for dropping out before Iowa in 2020 but somehow was coronated the nominee without any voter…

Purity spiral. The left won't be competitive in elections until they learn what it is, why it results in alienation of people who would otherwise support them, and find a way to escape it.

One could argue the right with its views on abortion and religion suffers the same problem, one they've largely tackled by voter disenfranchisement and gerrymandering.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#638

Post by idiotsecant »

zpeti wrote: post #631
JW_00000 wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing about democracy is, every person is going to sometimes wildly disagree with what the elected officials do. Declaring it a 'coup' is as silly as [...] The reason people are calling this a coup is not (only) because they disagree with what Trump/Musk are doing, but because their actions are illegal. A president is still expected to follow the rule of law and respect separation of powers. If there are no mor…

Who says they are illegal? Can you cite some sources please? Like actual legal experts, not the guardian. As far as I know, the chevron deference ruling makes it easily arguable that these agencies don't necessarily have any legal standing anyway. The 8 month buyout was completely legal, Clinton did the same. I actually find it highly unlikely any of this is illegal, it's just completely unbearable to anyone who is p…

Boy howdy there's a lot to pull apart here but ;et's start with your core statement regarding chevron deference. The recent (and wildly stupid, I think but besides the point) Chevron deference ruling says, in summary, that federal agencies have very little latitude in deciding their internal policies where not explicitly defined by congress.

The current administration replaced the head of an agency and had that agency shut itself down. Shutting yourself down is clearly not a power given to any federal agency, so by the very policy you're citing either the judicial or executive branch must act to allow such a move.

Instead, our cheeto in chief decided that those other branches don't actually need to do any of that pesky work and it's a lot easier if everyone just does what he wants.

There's a word for that style of governance.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#639

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #635
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn’t it what the head of executive branch supposed to mean? In a nation governed by a constitution and laws, absofuckinglutely not. The chief executive is supposed to operate within the bounds of the constitution and the laws created under it.

Supposed to, but the consequences for not doing so are... overly complicated, see the various impeachments and court cases he's already had and defeated. The bounds and laws should have been finetuned long ago, reducing the power of the President on the one side, and reforming the government to be more representative instead of a two party Us vs Them system. But that is also a democratic process and neither side has…

Totally agree that there have been several past failures to reinforce the system and make it less of a good faith / handshake agreement to keep it on the rails.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't speak up and call bullshit on what's happening. It's important to call it what it is. It's important to speak up.

Re: What's happening inside the NIH and NSF

#640

Post by tomrod »

Propelloni wrote: post #615
jmward01 wrote: post #490

This is a coup and we are calmly debating budgets. Debating the % of budget and how useful organization x is and if y will still get grant money, and, and, and... All of this is ignoring the big elephant in the room that there is one single person deciding everything that happens in government as if they were a king. The right thing to be debating is how we can stop this from continuing and how we can hold those resp…

This is not a coup, because Trump is still in his lawful 2nd and final term. Until then let's call it Gleichschaltung [1], because that's what it is: bringing all aspects of society under totalitarian control. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung

Butterfly revolution.
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