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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#631

Post by michaelkeenan »

lostdog wrote: post #176
rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

Wow, what a perfect description of why their probability-logic leads to silly beliefs. I've been wondering how to argue within their frame for a while, and here's what I've come up with: Is the likelihood that aliens exist, are unfriendly, and AGI will help us beat them higher or lower than the likelihood that the AGI itself that we develop is unfriendly to us and wants to FOOM us? Show your work.

AGI would be extremely helpful in navigating clashes with aliens, but taking the time to make sure it's safe is very unlikely to make a difference to whether it's ready in time. Rationalists want AGI to be built, and they're generally very excited about it, e.g. many of them work at Anthropic. They just don't want a Move Fast and Break Things pace of development.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#632

Post by skissane »

sunshowers wrote: post #619
card_zero wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to go like this: Compatibilists: free will is a term for something real that we do. Incompatibilists: no, that thing is trivial and should have a different name. Free will is a term for something impossible. But despite being impossible it's a meaningful concept. And it's somehow hugely important and deserves a name. I'm unclear about the motivation for this, especially the last part.

My specific issue is with moral responsibility, which I believe is out of one's control. (So for example I don't think developers are to morally blame for writing bad code.)

Yes, but there again you are conflating three separate questions:

(1) Do we have choices?

(2) Are our choices "free"?

(3) Should we be held morally responsible for our choices?

How we answer (1) and (2) doesn't necessarily determine how we answer (3). And if (3) is your real point, maybe you should focus on that, rather than confusing things by conflating it with (1) and (2).

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#633

Post by saagarjha »

novok wrote: post #605
rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

I noticed years ago too that AI doomers and rationalist type were very prone to (infinity * 0 = infinity) types of traps, which is a fairly autistic way of thinking. Humanity long time ago decided that infinity * 0 = 0 for very good practical reasons.

No, humanity decided that infinity doesn't exist and anyone trying to tell you about it is selling you religion.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#634

Post by saagarjha »

scarmig wrote: post #205
Aurornis wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weird to see a community I followed show up so close to home and negatively like this. I had some coworkers who were really into LessWrong and rationality. I thought it was fun to read some of the selected writings they would share, but I always felt that online rationalist communities collected a lot of people with reactionary, fascist, misogynistic, and far-right tendencies. There’s a heavily sanitized version of…

It's somewhat odd to represent a community as being right wing when the worst thing to come from it was a trans vegan murder cult. Most "rationalists" vote Democrat, and if the franchise were limited to them, Harris would have won in a 50 state landslide. The complaint here seems to be that rationalists don't take progressive pieties as axiomatic.

Being a trans vegan doesn't automatically make you left wing. Nor does voting Democrat. Being progressive is a complex set of ideals, just as conservatism is a lot more than whatever the Republican party is doing today.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#635

Post by trhway »

rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

>The problem with rationalists/EA

i see 2 - superiority complex and lack of such an "irrational" thing like empathy. Basically they use crude logical-like looking constructions to excuse their own narcissism and related indulgences.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#636

Post by saagarjha »

Qwertious wrote: post #561
adastra22 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump is not a conservative… you are mistaking “conservative” for “republican.”

Okay then, did the average conservative vote for him?

Conservatism barely exists in the US today.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#637

Post by suraci »

rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

[flagged]

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#638

Post by metalman »

sixo wrote: post #94
metalman wrote: post #61

Holly crap, it reads like the anti Electric coolaid acid test, with petty revenge ,guns, and murder dejour,instead of , instead of, well, an epic road party that is still going......bobby just played the gramys...there were glitches with the sound system and they raised 15 mill I like some of what Aella has written, but had no idea that ,Rationalists, had just rebranded nialistic hate.....so cleverly.

Well they haven't. It's one group of fewer than 10 people, considerably removed from "the rationalists" as this point.

Stuff like what is happening around ziz, the zit, is all too common. I have met and conversed with people out on the fringes of the intelectual edge,in protest camps and anarchist communes,etc,and they very much discuss and rationalise getting there murder on.....when not bieng all glowy about aliens...and rightious about gender(s), so many)) pronouns, and the rest, but since they play chess a lot, they are rational, right. Guaranteed there will/is more of the same.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#639

Post by 01100011 »

rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

Another thing I'll add after having spent a few years in a religious cult:

It's all about the axioms. If you tweak the axioms you can use impeccable logic to build a completely incorrect framework that will appeal to otherwise intelligent(and often highly intelligent) people.

Also, people are always less rational than they are able to admit. The force of things like social connection can very easily warp the reasoning capabilities of the most devout rationalist(although they'll likely never admit that).

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#640

Post by b800h »

shadowgovt wrote: post #595
adastra22 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction is is in the derivative: progressives ("leftist" is less well defined) support the expansion of universal constitution law (which, right or wrong, is a change to the existing law), whereas conservatives except in the case of compelling evidence default to making no changes. Hence, being "conservative" about making changes.

This reasoning implies the current President and his party are not conservative, which is an interesting conclusion.

Little is left of what (real) Conservatives were trying to conserve. Now they have to become radicals to shift things back.
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