Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available • Hacker News Board

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#631

Post by mandmandam » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:01 AM UTC

yibg wrote: post #618

mandmandam wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the graph posted above: Productivity gains since 1950 - 253% Wage growth since 1950 - 115% We could be in society A right now if those gains weren't hoovered up by the yacht class.

People consume a hell of a lot more now than 1950. Houses are bigger, we buy more clothes, eat more food, have more gadgets. The yacht class can only consume so much.

> People consume a hell of a lot more now than 1950.

The graph is true regardless.

Americans could be working 20 hours a week without society falling apart. The only thing that would change would be to the yacht class - who would still be very very wealthy.

> Houses are bigger, we buy more clothes, eat more food, have more gadgets.

How much more does housing cost? I'll save you the effort - it's fully twice as much per square foot, adjusted for inflation.

How much more temporary and flimsy are our clothes?

How much less nutritious is our food? How much more toxic is it - to ourselves, to the soil? How much fatter are we? How much more unhealthy?

We have more gadgets, sure. They're all owned by a handful of companies with damn-near monopoly powers, and none of them are changing this trend of a more and more unequal society.

So... What's your point?

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#632

Post by littlestymaar » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:26 AM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #620

littlestymaar wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins. It's very funny, because people with the same political opinions as you in my country are absolutely positive that this is the case for my country instead (France).…

Both can be right in their own way. I'm not saying we should get rid of our welfare. I'm just saying our people are missing the point. It's incredible privilege to live here. You think they would get the same welfare in the US, in China, Ghana or Russia? Think again. They should be grateful is what I'm saying.

No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work, which I'm arguing against. You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against.

Now I agree with you that even though their live is still tough, they are still very lucky to live in Germany as opposed to many other places on earth.

But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#633

Post by littlestymaar » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:39 AM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #621

littlestymaar wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV. Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard. You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable. If you never skipped meal because you could not af…

> Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard. They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population. Put this into perspective. I've seen incredible poverty in this world. Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely. > You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can f…

> They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population

Who themselves are miles ahead the entirely of work population that ever lived on this planet before XXth century, but that doesn't make their life any better, does it?

> Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely.

You aren't entitled any gratitude from people, especially not on the basis that there lives is being made a bit less miserable because of policies you oppose. Maybe I would deserve it slightly more, because at least I'm voting in favor of these policies, but I don't think anyone owes me gratitude whatsoever.

> To live always comfortable is not the point of welfare.

I'm not arguing the opposite, but you did insist that these people lived comfortably. This is obviously BS and I'm glad to see you're retracting it now.

> Seeing as you're swatting away my opinions and personal experience as propaganda, I don't think there is any way to get a fruitful discussion out of this. I don't think we should lower welfare benefits. I just think we're being nationally out of touch with reality.

Whatever your opinions (which BTW are as valid as mine, by definition of being opinions), you started this conversation with factual lies (which, on the opposite, isn't OK) about people “easily living” on welfare. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not make this lie on purpose by yourself, and given that this is a recurrent trope of right wing politicians on TV, it's fair to assume that's where it came from.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#634

Post by pcrh » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 1:04 PM UTC

talldatethrow wrote: post #615

pcrh wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Such variable motivations for work and money apply to those on low incomes as much as they apply to those on high incomes. There's no a-priori reason why one would expect those who receive UBI to be work-shy.

It makes you work shy because unless you have a high paying job, it doesn't make sense to work. $3k with tons of free time all week. Or add working for $3k extra money by giving up all your free time? Not worth it. Unless of course apartments become $5k a month since that's about the money that a person on UBI plus a bad job has..

Why does that logic not apply to those on higher incomes?

Have a job with a free-market rate of $100/hr? Why not work for only 30 hrs a week?

Also, UBI levels are never proposed at $3k/week ($150k/yr), but rather at about $250/wk ($13k/yr), or only 2-3 hours of work per week for the $100/hr guy.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#635

Post by selfmodruntime » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 1:06 PM UTC

littlestymaar wrote: post #632

selfmodruntime wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both can be right in their own way. I'm not saying we should get rid of our welfare. I'm just saying our people are missing the point. It's incredible privilege to live here. You think they would get the same welfare in the US, in China, Ghana or Russia? Think again. They should be grateful is what I'm saying.

No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work, which I'm arguing against. You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. Now I agree with you that even though their live is still tough, they are still very lucky to live in Germany as opposed to many other places on earth. But that wasn't the topic and you moved t…

> No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work

Well you‘re free to quote me on that. I haven‘t been saying this at all.

> which I'm arguing against.

No, you’re arguing for falsehoods. Posters here are stating that things that are covered aren‘t and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue.

> You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against.

I haven‘t. Again, please do quote me.

> But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost.

No, the topic was that you (among others) think people on Bürgergeld starve, are in dire need of heating and live in depressed states for lack of funding. These are lies. You‘re lying. I’ve no idea why.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#636

Post by onli » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 2:34 PM UTC

nkmnz wrote: post #627

onli wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. There is ceiling that is unreachably low. Heating is also not included,so in no way is everything else covered. To others: This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this. Don't believe a single bit, they do not describe the state of the country nor how the policies work. It is a common wave of propaganda th…

Your statements are not true. Heating is fully covered and Bürgergeld pays way more for rent than the average student can afford. Maybe it’s different in your city, but in mine, Jobcenter is very generous when it comes to paying rent.

It's just not. Heating is only covered when its costs are deemed to be reasonable. It's just not fully covered by default. It's nice when they cover it for you without problems, but it's not a given. Plus there are limits, like not covering parts of the costs if your apartment is deemed too big.

I could also have picked electricity costs as a different cost of living that is not covered at all.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#637

Post by onli » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 2:36 PM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #604

onli wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. There is ceiling that is unreachably low. Heating is also not included,so in no way is everything else covered. To others: This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this. Don't believe a single bit, they do not describe the state of the country nor how the policies work. It is a common wave of propaganda th…

> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you ge…

BTW, you can't get bürgergeld and Wohngeld at the same time, so that's already completely wrong. See https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/buerg... :

Wenn Sie Bürgergeld erhalten, haben Sie keinen Anspruch auf Wohngeld. Allerdings ist Wohngeld eine vorrangige Leistung. Wenn Sie dadurch Ihre Hilfebedürftigkeit beseitigen oder vermeiden können, können Sie einen Wohngeldantrag stellen (ab dem 1. Juli 2023 sind Sie verpflichtet, einen Wohngeldantrag zu stellen).

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#638

Post by onli » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 2:39 PM UTC

nkmnz wrote: post #628

onli wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted pe…

If these sanctions did stay in place… then why is chancellor Scholz (SPD) currently rallying to reintroduce them?[0] of course, he’s a populist, but that doesn’t make your statement true. [0] https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/scholz-so...

He does not? The article is saying the contrary:

Gegen Bezieher, die sich immer wieder weigerten, Jobs anzunehmen, habe die Regierung zudem bereits härtere Sanktionen möglich gemacht.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#639

Post by onli » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 2:56 PM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #619

onli wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted pe…

> What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore I still don't agree it's right wing propaganda. Bürgergeld is just one part of a larger picture of why people don't want to work anymore. The reality is that social welfare in its entirety is too close to what you can earn with low skilled work, wages are too low and benefits are too hig…

> This is not true in my experience. I don't know where you're getting this information from. Heating costs were always covered unless you heat like a maniac and unforseen bills are not happening. Where should they? Your apartment and car fixing costs are covered. You can read more about this here: [1]

That does not fit together at all. The article is covering a legal decision from 2020 where one woman forced the jobcenter to cover car repair costs. So before, it was not covered. So you just did not have a childhood in the system where stuff like this was covered.

> Why shouldn't they take up shitty work? It's not undignified.

That's not the point. The claim above was that you can comfortable live on Bürgergeld without having to work. Which you usually can't, since it would be taken away (or at least significantly reduced) if you tried that.

> The reality is that social welfare in its entirety is too close to what you can earn with low skilled work

So which other social welfare systems than Bürgergeld are you aiming at here?

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#640

Post by onli » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 3:02 PM UTC

selfmodruntime wrote: post #635

littlestymaar wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work, which I'm arguing against. You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. Now I agree with you that even though their live is still tough, they are still very lucky to live in Germany as opposed to many other places on earth. But that wasn't the topic and you moved t…

> No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work Well you‘re free to quote me on that. I haven‘t been saying this at all. > which I'm arguing against. No, you’re arguing for falsehoods. Posters here are stating that things that are covered aren‘t and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue. > You also said this lack of ince…

Given the full thread, you claimed both things here:

>> It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld.

> Oh wow, the exact thing people have been saying would happen has happened. Turn's out Quasi-UBI is a drain on tax paying citizens after all. Amazing.