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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#631

Post by tyingq »

boringg wrote: post #66
moshun wrote: post #32

For context, a total of 69 journalists were killed in WWII, 63 in the Vietnam war both of which lasted several years. As of today March 6th 2024, the Gaza invasion has left 86 journalists dead in less than 4 months. That is an amazingly high percentage for the expected mean in a conflict. Sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel... https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-j…

That may be true but a couple things have changed since those very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots. (5) speculation -> journalists who are using press credentials as cover I'm neither way on the conflict but want to co…

Some of the individual incidents do point pretty strongly to deliberate acts. The incidents in Lebanon, for example, rule out a lot of the "proximity" reasoning, as do the methods and types of weapons.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#632

Post by GordonS »

gryzzly wrote: post #610
GordonS wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going by Israeli TV, Telegram channels and polls, unfortunately it really does seem like a large proportion of Israelis think of Palestinians as sub-human bugs to be crushed. Already we've seen settlers building an "outpost" inside Gaza, while Israeli soldiers watch on. Meanwhile, Israeli civilians block aid to starving children, again while the IDF watch.

can you link me to such polls?

Sure: https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci-english.ta.... This is a very interesting poll, and it clearly shows that Arabs want peace, while Israeli Jews do not.

In reference to the same poll: "A vast majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the IDF is using an appropriate amount or not enough force" [0]. "Nearly 58 percent of respondents in one poll said they think the IDF is using “too little firepower” in Gaza" [1]

[0] https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-783849

[1] https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-is...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#633

Post by GordonS »

leereeves wrote: post #34
boppo1 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a way to verify this? I tend to agree, but I have no way to be rigorously convinced. For example, iirc Palestine health authority reports the names of all the civilians[0] that have been killed. I think the number is something like 30k. I frequently wonder if that number is simply exaggerated, as it would be in Palestine's interest to do so. However, if the number is supported by a corresponding list of the…

AFAIK, and I've seen news articles saying the same, Israel has not provided any evidence for its claim to have killed 12,000 Hamas fighters. But the latest reported death toll is over 30k, 22k of whom are women and children. Another 10k or more are missing and presumed dead. If about one-third of the missing are adult men, matching the ratio of deaths, then about 12k adult men are dead or missing. Is it plausible tha…

> Is it plausible that Israel is so precise that all the adult men they've killed were Hamas fighters?

We know from some of their previous actions in the region that they could be, if they wanted to - we've seen them take out individual aparment units with missiles, for example.

But given how many unguided munitions Israel are using in Gaza... I mean, almost the whole of Gaza has been reduced to rubble - the idea that every military-age male is Hamas is just not credible.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#634

Post by bawolff »

incognos wrote: post #540
bawolff wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of it is the current situation lends itself to more pro-gaza headlines. For starters the situation is evolving more on that front. Every new action is a potential headline for palestine. On the other hand Israel's position is much more static: They want to prevent the slaughter on oct 7 from happening again, and are using force to do so. That hasn't changed. You can't make new headlines out of it. Its pr…

[flagged]

> Prior to making unfounded statements, might I suggest you become informed?

> Israel has occupied Palestine since 1948

Perhaps you should check your dates before calling people misinformed. Gaza was occupied by Egypt until 1967.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#635

Post by gryzzly »

GordonS wrote: post #625
gryzzly wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and any reason you decided not to answer the second part of the question?

Do you mean this part? > what interest Palestinians have in regard to Israelis from your point of view? I'm not sure I understand the question? Is it "how to Palestinians feel about Israelis?". If so, I don't know, but I can imagine how I might feel if I'd been dehumanised my entitre life; lived under brutal occupation/blockade my entire life, seen siblings carted off to be tortured in Israeli dungeons, had my father…

[flagged]

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#636

Post by tyingq »

hmcq6 wrote: post #42
ciconia wrote: post #25

> Around 10% of Gaza's journalists have been killed versus 2.5% of healthcare workers. One possible explanation is that journalists have a much higher probability of being close to where the fighting is, than healthcare workers.

That's a bad explanation because it relies on an assumption about how the press in Palestine are operating on the ground and I'm guessing no one on hackernews actually has that info. We don't know that reporters are rushing into danger or hanging out where the danger is going to be. In fact, a lot of the "reporters" who we've been watching were never war reporters to begin with. Motaz, for instance was an aspiring tr…

> Wael was the cheif of Al-Jazera in Gaza.

I find it vanishingly unlikely that all the things that have happened to this man and his family are just tragic coincidence. He was clearly targeted.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#637

Post by exodust »

incognos wrote: post #594

[flagged]

You might identify as a fact vending machine, but don't count on others buying your processed snacks.

> Fact: This began in 1948...

Let's add a breakpoint there. You haven't defined "this", and everyone knows any measure of "this" goes back before 1948. Speaking of 1948, just 3 years after WW2 ended, the Jews who suffered some of the worst death and despair of WW2, were attacked again in 1948 from all sides in the Arab Israel war. Yes we all know the crimes on both sides at that time. But still... Welcome to the neighborhood!

When a country needs an "iron dome" to protect itself from neighbors, the problem is the neighbors, not the ones who built the iron dome.

Wherever you have humans, there's conflict. This pattern repeats in varying degrees everywhere. The idea is to move towards peace, resolution, compromise, and a way out of misery. Pointing fingers at Israel and blaming everything on them is not an exercise in fact-finding.

Oct7 was probably the worst strategic blunder ever. "Look over there, a music festival! Let's gleefully kill, rape and torture! What could go wrong?!"

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#638

Post by reducesuffering »

wolverine876 wrote: post #299
screye wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a remarkably small number. It makes me think journalists weren't present in the warzone at all. Irrespective of which side you support, Hamas is notorious for colocating themselves among civilians. An elevated civilian death count, including journalists is to be expected. However, the numbers being THIS high in this short a time is alarming and tragic.

> Hamas is notorious for colocating themselves among civilians. I despise Hamas, but this claim is disingenuous propaganda (by the leaders who make it, not the parent who repeats it): First, Hamas is 'notorious' for it because it's endlessly repeated by their enemies. That rhetoric doesn't make anything true. (Haven't we had the Internet long enough that people know it well by now?) Second, Hamas is an assymetric, ir…

> Hamas is notorious for colocating themselves among civilians.

> this claim is disingenuous propaganda

> Hamas is an assymetric, irregular force, and assymetric forces cannot operate bases or fight open battles anywhere; they all must blend in with civilians

Are you listening to yourself here? Pure cognitive dissonance

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#640

Post by GordonS »

jncfhnb wrote: post #130
eeeehhh wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, one side of a conflict cannot ignore the rules simply because the other side does. It also seems an especially poor argument when one side is a nuclear-armed, highly modern military power and the other a lighltly armed militia.

Not ignore, no. But the bar for holding one accountable for collateral damage changes. Considering, for example, the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible. When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms sieg…

> the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible

"clearing operations" for tunnels involves heavy bombing above ground, which will kill civilians and destroy civilian homes and infrastructure - there is nothing "defensible" about that. Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smuggling of foods, medicines, luxuries etc - and only exist because of Israel's blockade.

> When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms siege versus just blowing it up

Right, but that's a strawman argument, as there has been no evidence of Hamas using hospitals as an "arms hub".

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