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Henry Kissinger Has Died

nytimes.com

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Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#631

Post by type0 »

mattnewton wrote: post #581
workingdog wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Vietnam war was unjust and unwinnable. JRK got us into it, and Nixon got us out of it while navigating the complexities of China, the cold war, and a potential WW III if we appeared too weak.

JFK and Johnson deserve the blame for starting the war, by the end of Johnson’s term it was obvious the public wanted out of the war and he was negotiating the end of it. Nixon and Kissinger extended the war for political reasons. They met behind the American governments back with the south Vietnamese and convinced them to hold out for a better deal from the republicans, and they withdrew from talks and tanked Johnso…

and Kissinger got the Nobel Peace Prize

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#632

Post by type0 »

mmpdev wrote: post #319
LispSporks22 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also check out The Trial of Henry Kissinger by Christopher Hitchens. I think it was made into a documentary later. The man was worthy of the title of war criminal, but of course we don't prosecute our own and we certainly don't recommend to the ICC (we're the good guys, you see). It will be interested to see what obituaries settle on this week though.

Not only would we not recommend our war criminals to the ICC, we have on the books the authorization to be able to invade the Hague in case any US person was being held or tried. Hague Invasion Act / ASPA is wild.

> we have on the books the authorization to be able to invade the Hague in case any US person was being held or tried. Hague Invasion Act / ASPA is wild.

That's more the reason to move the court to a country with nukes, say France, Strasbourg and put some retaliation Act in place if Americans put Strasbourg Invasion Act in place

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#633

Post by maxerickson »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #525
FergusArgyll wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a little known law in the USA which states the following; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It's not always followed but it does remain fairly important in the mind of Ame…

The first amendment prevents censorship, by the US government , of the press or individual speech. It doesn't prevent an individual or legal person from suing over something written or said in public about them. What would stop the Atlantic from "getting sued into oblivion" is that the person that the article was about (Nixon) was dead when it was written, and the dead can't be defamed.

It's also more or less opinion, which categorically is not defamation in the US, dead or not.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#634

Post by charred_patina »

fsckboy wrote: post #226
charred_patina wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that nuclear weapons are about deterrence means you don't want them to be secret. A secret nuclear weapon's primary use would be a revenge weapon. Or to blow up a city in a surprise attack. Neither of which is particularly "defensive". There's a reason why we have arms treaties and try to be transparent about our nuclear capabilities. I know it's a movie but Dr. Strangelove is a great example of the thinking…

the issue cited is that the Soviet Union would need to respond. The face-saving open secret could easily be the better option.

I mean, we can only speculate. But "nuclear non-proliferation for thee, secret nukes for me" hasn't really worked out great in the middle east so far.

It's obvious that "realpolitik" makes some nations winners and others losers-- while the lives of real human beings hang in the balance. I think anyone who thinks they should determine the winners and losers needs to be heavily criticized. Regardless of which side they are on.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#635

Post by reducesuffering »

ahoho wrote: post #546
reducesuffering wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is what I'm talking about. You can read about Operation Menu for yourself. "In 1966, Sihanouk made an agreement with Zhou Enlai of the People's Republic of China that would allow PAVN and VC forces to establish base areas in Cambodia and to use the port of Sihanoukville for the delivery of military material Before the diplomatic amenities with Sihanouk [and the US] were even concluded, Nixon had decided to…

Kissinger picked targets in Cambodia. He gave the instruction to bomb “anything that flies, anything that moves” [1] [2] [1] https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/walrus_cambodiabomb... [2] https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB123/3%20%20Kissinger...

From your own selected sources, we have Kissinger telling Nixon that the Air Force isn’t designed for this, but has to relay Nixon’s orders to General Haig.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#636

Post by reducesuffering »

jrflowers wrote: post #614
reducesuffering wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good, got any that can illuminate how Kissinger was “coming up with the whole idea?"

This is a good point. Maybe bombs were just going to fall on Cambodia naturally without a senior American official directing them to. It is a mystery as to whether or not Cambodia would just become bombed on its own without Kissinger selecting targets. Given the intricacies of the natural bomb migration patterns, who is to say if any person can be thought of as participating in how they fall? It is a philosophical qu…

Ok so by deferring to a teenager’s sarcasm, instead of any evidence that supports your original assertion, we’ve established that there’s no further case to your inaccurate judgement.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#637

Post by reducesuffering »

Mainan_Tagonist wrote: post #522
reducesuffering wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assume he was smarter than the people without clearance Idk, it's actually wild how HN is almost entirely "Kissinger is a war criminal" meme-ing with little actual specific policy substance behind it. Meanwhile, if you read any Kissinger, you'd realize he understood history and the international relations better than 99% of these comments. Truly, word-for-word basis you will undoubtedly learn far more about history…

Thanks for pointing this out, his book title Diplomacy was very enlightening. One thing of note in the spew of bile aimed at Kissinger in the HN comment thread is that it appears to emanate from people who were children or not even born during the cold war, and who seem to base their opinion on the comments of rock n' roll stars, cooks, leftist journalists/activists (sometimes turned neocon in their later life, surpr…

Yes, topics like these mask off that HN is only a step above uneducated right wing echo chambers. People would rather throw out Bourdain, Hunter Thompson, or Rolling Stones and Huffington Post quotes than read a history book around the 60s. In some part, I blame the Reddit like upvoting that reinforces people to regurgitate the current popular opinions for affirmation. Convinced their shallow take is right, unaware of how little they could actually tell you what specifically happened 50 years ago.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#638

Post by redder23 »

__loam wrote: post #625
redder23 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah and OF COURSE I get downvoted. I know it. This fucking site is filled with braindead morons, almost as bad as Reddit. But also some people with brains who point out who he really was. A disgusting war criminal and nothing less. But you gonna honor a war criminal because the MSMBS media brainwashed you into praising him as a good man and great advisor or whatever the fuck they tell you to believe. He was the person…

Many on this site believe that unregulated technology and capitalism is the surest way to a better world, so it really shouldn't be surprising that some of the people who benefit the most from the neoliberal order are praising one of its architects.

I don't think its even that deep. People are just repeating the praise mainstream media is doing and thing everyone who succeeds in government is just a great person. The believe the propaganda about Kissinger. Or they just can't take me cursing and using strong words they reflex dislike because they have Reddit brain.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#639

Post by jrflowers »

reducesuffering wrote: post #636
jrflowers wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. Maybe bombs were just going to fall on Cambodia naturally without a senior American official directing them to. It is a mystery as to whether or not Cambodia would just become bombed on its own without Kissinger selecting targets. Given the intricacies of the natural bomb migration patterns, who is to say if any person can be thought of as participating in how they fall? It is a philosophical qu…

Ok so by deferring to a teenager’s sarcasm, instead of any evidence that supports your original assertion, we’ve established that there’s no further case to your inaccurate judgement.

I am not sure if it’s possible to rise to the level of excellence in reasoning that you’ve established while laying out your thesis of “only uneducated laymen think that Kissinger was a war criminal”.

You have a fascinating point that you are very smart and the act of disagreeing with you on this categorically makes others very dumb.

I suppose you can claim a victory in that I decline to refute your idea that “an action can’t be a war crime if multiple people are involved, also knowing who Henry Kissinger is means you don’t know who anyone else is”, it is simply a thought too eloquent and genius to craft an equally compelling riposte.

Anyway, you’re welcome to directly address the primary sources I linked and make a bullet pointed list explaining why each part is proof that Henry Kissinger did not commit any war crimes.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#640

Post by inemesitaffia »

MikePlacid wrote: post #599
boppo1 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the NYT's war coverage (Ukraine & Israel) is still so slanted, or have they improved?

I do not know about Israel, but I can read both Russian and Ukrainian. And there is a pretty objective test: read a Russian president’s statement - see how it is reported, read a Ukrainian president’s statement - see how it is reported. Note: I can’t verify facts in the field, but I can read the statement and see how it is reported. So, samples: 1. After pro-Russian forces achieved a major victory in August 2014, the…

Just looked it up and consider your statement disinformation
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