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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#631

Post by burnte »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

Decriminalization is 25% of the problem. Lack of universal healthcare, well funded housing support, and rehab-to-work programs are the other 75%. Source: I worked in chemical dependency rehab for 5 years. We had a great in-patient residential program that didn't use suboxone as a substitute, but as a bridge to not taking ANY drugs. 7-14 days for most patients and that's it. And we had a huge success rate, but our patients tended to have great support in their lives. The ones who failed were the ones who had no support. Not putting people in jail isn't enough, putting them into treatment is the goal.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#633

Post by AaronM »

mtalantikite wrote: post #177
antisyzygy wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're missing part of the equation there. Decriminalization isn't legalization. Legalization would mean controlling purity, and strength where the drug is licensed to be sold. Marijuana legalization hasn't lead to any major problems. People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. They go for what's convenient. Beyond that simply throwing people in prison doesn't mean that w…

> People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. The unlicensed weed bodegas popping up on every other block in NYC beg to differ. People might not text a delivery service anymore, but they're definitely not going to legal recreational dispensaries here in NYC.

NYC has like a dozen recreational dispensaries right now. Likely not nearly enough supply to meet demand

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#634

Post by dclowd9901 »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

Supporting legalizing drugs across the board is so naive. If you’ve ever had a family member who’s had addiction problems, you know how much a person’s addiction can wreck the lives of so many people. In some ways, they’re like a sinkhole that just keeps expanding. I include alcohol addiction in this.

That said, I don’t think Portland was wrong with the decision to decriminalize. I think they just did it in the wrong order. They should have had strong support set up _before_ ever going the route of decriminalizing.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#635

Post by ddingus »

collaborative wrote: post #243
ddingus wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truth and I would change that statement just a bit: Any * successful * treatment requires the patient to want treatment. In addition, the triggers for it all need to be addressed. Those can be: Simple pain, trauma More complex financial issues, housing, etc... PTSD of various kinds, war, abuse and the like. Without a plan to address triggers and desire to be done with it all, treatment success is extremely unlikely.

I agree but I find it is actually harder to recover when the focus is on finding the reasons for addiction We are fallen creatures and simply accepting our fallen nature might be more productive

Yeah, I did not mean to place the why in front of the basics.

The primary is to want to be done.

It all starts there.

How ending it goes really depends on the person. Take it one struggle at a time. Wash, rinse repeat.

Having finished, one tends to look around and ask, "what now?"

And that is what I meant. Have some options for people that are not doorways back.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#636

Post by chris_wot »

wkat4242 wrote: post #629
K0balt wrote: post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

Shame is a bad thing IMO. It's basically self-deprecation as a result of peer pressure. The thing is, peers aren't always right. In many cases the masses impose their self-centered views on arbitrary topics. It's not always about something as self-destructive as hard drugs, or even self-destructive at all. You might live in a highly religious community but have LGBT+ feelings. You might wish to enjoy playing games th…

There is good shame and bad shame. If you murder someone, then you should rightly feel shame. If you are gay, then you should not feel shame. Shame can work both ways.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#637

Post by jadtz »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #615
ryandrake wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge strain of "mind your own business" running through the USA right now. When someone is out of line, you used to be able to rely on the public to correct that behavior. Now if you try, you're the bad guy--or "Karen" as they say, and everyone flips out their cell phone cameras to try to capture that crazed weirdo who has the audacity to ask someone else to behave themselves. I brought my kid to a pumpkin…

You think that assholes are a new phenomenon? You think that a few decades ago that lady would have meekly apologized and walked away?

No, I don't think that assholes are a new phenomenon, and I agree that rude and entitled behavior has always existed. However, societal norms and expectations regarding how to handle such situations may have evolved over time. In the past, confrontation might have been more common.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#638

Post by dclowd9901 »

K0balt wrote: post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

I think your premise (that folks suffering addiction _don’t_ feel shame) may be incorrect. I think the addiction is more powerful than the shame.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#639

Post by _blz2 »

brightlancer wrote: post #194
tenebrisalietum wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who consumes sugar, trans fat or smokes cigarettes should be unable to vote as well?

Anyone who disagrees with me should be unable to vote. The paradox of tolerance says I should not tolerate anyone who is intolerant, and if they disagree with me then they are intolerant and we should not tolerate them. Checkmate, fascists.

Well drug abusers also have the right to adopt kids. Not sure how any sane society should be tolerant of that.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#640

Post by re-thc »

chris_wot wrote: post #636
wkat4242 wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame is a bad thing IMO. It's basically self-deprecation as a result of peer pressure. The thing is, peers aren't always right. In many cases the masses impose their self-centered views on arbitrary topics. It's not always about something as self-destructive as hard drugs, or even self-destructive at all. You might live in a highly religious community but have LGBT+ feelings. You might wish to enjoy playing games th…

There is good shame and bad shame. If you murder someone, then you should rightly feel shame. If you are gay, then you should not feel shame. Shame can work both ways.

> If you are gay, then you should not feel shame. Shame can work both ways.

Anything can go both ways.

In the past you can go to jail for being gay (and still in some parts of the world).

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