Why I Left Rust • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Left Rust

#631

Post by kyleee » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

harpiaharpyja wrote: post #338

brokenkebaby wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rust members were "uncomfortable" with this purely technical viewpoint - not their behavior, personal beliefs, or even their demographic? Claim of "feeling uncomfortable" was invented to be a tool of political fighting which allows to declare something, or somebody as unacceptable, completely avoiding debates. As it's becoming generally normalized, it's absolutely logical that it spills into other fields of human in…

> As it's becoming generally normalized, it's absolutely logical that it spills into other fields of human interaction. It's simple, and efficient, so why not? Is this sarcasm? I think it's pretty obvious why not. Broken communication, poor decisions, and the obvious fallout.

Not sarcasm I think you just didn’t understand; they are not asking for reasons why it would be bad for this behavior to spread, but rather asking what’s stopping it? And it sounds like a rhetorical question as posed

Re: Why I Left Rust

#632

Post by wirrbel » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #71

wirrbel wrote: post #6

I would have expected such a resignation after two weeks time to see whether the organization would improve their decision making process

Perhaps the person has already seen enough to decide this was the last straw.

valid

Re: Why I Left Rust

#633

Post by nickysielicki » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Rust is not the next C++. C++ is the next C++, rust is something else.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#634

Post by jjtheblunt » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

ssokolow wrote: post #539

jjtheblunt wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a LARP?

Live Action Role Play. Basically taking the transformation that made sports into sports computer games and running it in reverse on computer RPGs so you get people in costume in the park throwing colored balls at each other to "cast spells". Not really my thing, but a great way to get more fresh air and exercise if you're into RPGs.

thank you. i'll stick to hiking with our dog!

Re: Why I Left Rust

#635

Post by babbledabbler » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

It seems this is a case of poor decision and communication management rather than a machiavellian plot, however, it's no less harmful or toxic in the outcome.

I'm actually working on an app for organizations to make clear, fair, and transparent decisions systematically so things like this don't happen.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#636

Post by gymbeaux » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

I feel like I’ve observed similar “childish” behavior from the Go community more so, and to some degree in even the C# community where people were upset at Microsoft’s probably-malicious decisions (like removing Blazor debugging from non-Windows environments). Some of their proposed and implemented C# changes in the last couple of years seem really asinine too, not just to me but hundreds+ who voice their disappointment on Github.

This is a very egotistical industry and this is one of many ways that manifests.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#637

Post by ruph123 » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #352

All of this drama / culture war or whatever you want to call it is a big part of what turned me off to Rust in the first place. I come from .NET background and am open to the idea of a realistic C/C++ replacement. My experience with .NET and its "community" has left me with a really comfortable feeling with regard to my ability to do business, just "get shit done", etc. To be clear, there isn't really a community. I…

I mean the .NET community/org is no stranger to drama and controversal moves by some team members which gets discussed over several weeks on HN, blocks, Twitter and elsewhere. For example, I vividly remember this:

https://exceptionnotfound.net/the-catch-block-80-the-dotnet-...

Re: Why I Left Rust

#638

Post by zeteo » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

>Rust members were "uncomfortable" with this purely technical viewpoint - not their behavior, personal beliefs, or even their demographic?

>And then they pushed them out of the conference behind leadership's back?

>Did I miss something? This is indeed really childish behavior.

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions here. The article was written by someone who is clearly upset about the incident and doesn't go into a lot of detail about the motivation of the other party ("as best as I understand it, because of the content of JeanHeyd's blog post on reflection"). Would the "uncomfortable" team members agree that it was a matter of "comfort" that was caused primarily by the topic of a blog post? Are any relevant facts, by any chance, left out of the article? We don't know.

What we do know is that it didn't happen behind the leadership's back: "This discomfort was brought to the interim leadership group [...] A person in Rust leadership then [...] reached directly to RustConf leadership [...] RustConf leadership decided to wait a week [...] giving Rust leadership time to change its mind."

Re: Why I Left Rust

#639

Post by PKop » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

127 wrote: post #427

scns wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drama is common in human Comunnities.

Only in ones that are not based on merit and long term relationships.

Just because someone doesn't deserve something based on merit, doesn't mean they won't be resentful and vindictive if they don't get it. You could even say the concept of merit and the reality of differentiation of competence and ability itself leads to drama and conflict.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#640

Post by lumb63 » Sun, May 28, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

di4na wrote: post #430

rgbgraph wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…

[flagged]

Excluding someone else from a group doesn’t make someone an asshole. Every group has one or some thing(s) that separate them from the rest, otherwise they’d never have formed a group. Maybe it’s a vision, or a goal, or a belief, but there’s something that holds the group together. Contrary to what you’re saying, it’s integral to the cohesion of that group to exclude people who will not fit well.

There are countless examples of this phenomenon throughout history. Take for instance, the formation of the USA, the Catholic Church (Great Schism, Protestant Revolution, etc.), the American Civil War, etc. On a smaller scale, I know I’ve worked with people who would be a good fit on one team, but don’t match the culture of another. Or people who are very passionate about something, but wouldn’t do well in a group focused on something else. Sometimes, even, people have the same ends and such different means that they cannot coexist in the same group. You can see this with sports teams; everyone wants to win games, and some players or coaches don’t fit on certain teams because their idea of how to win doesn’t align with others’.

The reality is not everyone fits into every group. Trying to force that will yield a lot of resentment on both sides, in my experience. Much better to nip the problem in the bud.