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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

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Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#631

Post by BenFrantzDale »

ethbr0 wrote: post #453
TeMPOraL wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it has to do with how many frames of reference you're juggling in a task/profession. With boats, others mentioned that wind provides its own frame, and there are separate words still for "left" and "right" in that frame. Then there's space, where it gets even more fun, as the relevant frames - the ship, the orbit (or the "centre of gravity" of everything pulling on you) - are completely independent. That is…

> With boats, others mentioned that wind provides its own frame, and there are separate words still for "left" and "right" in that frame. There's windward (towards/upwind) and leeward (away/downwind). Are there left and right too? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windward_and_leeward

Windward and upwind are different in my book: windward is anything to the side of the boat opposite the main boom, whereas upwind is you draw a line perpendicular to the wind direction and anything toward the wind from that line is upwind. You could have a mark downwind of you on the windward side if you overshot the last tack before a mark.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#632

Post by wellanyway »

wazoox wrote: post #418
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

In French, starboard and port are "tribord" (same etymology as "starboard", through Dutch) and "bâbord" ("back (of the oarman) board"). On stage, they are "côté cour" and "côté jardin" because the "Comédie-Française" theatre during the 1770 was in the Tuileries palace, and the stage was oriented with the Louvre courtyard on its right, and the Tuileries garden on its left.

> because the "Comédie-Française" theatre during the 1770 was in the Tuileries palace, and the stage was oriented with the Louvre courtyard on its right, and the Tuileries garden on its left

That is the most french explanation possible.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#633

Post by sergiosgc »

HPsquared wrote: post #412
sergiosgc wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Four, actually. You also have the wind frame of reference, which is actually the most important (for sail boats). You don't turn left or right, you turn upwind or downwind.

For wind there is leeward (downwind) and windward (upwind). I don't think there are common terms for the 2 crosswind directions though?

I'm not familiar with sail vocabulary in English, but in Portuguese there is only downwind (sotavento) and upwind (barlavento). Functionally you don't need the other two, so I imagine it's similar in English.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#634

Post by yencabulator »

marvin wrote: post #417
loloquwowndueo wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheese is an interesting one - I would expect Spanish to share the word with French and Italian but it’s actually closer to English and Dutch. French fromage Italian formagio Spanish queso English cheese Dutch kaas Languages are so weird :)

In the case of cheese, I've had a long-running discussion with French extended family regarding exactly what the words refer to. Norwegian 'cheese' = 'ost', and we refer to the brown cheese produced by boiling and solidifying the left-over whey fluid from cheese production as 'brunost'; 'brown cheese'. This product is important in cultures where food security and calories are held at a premium. My French relatives ho…

Wiktionary says fromage comes from Latin for "mould", cheese might come from Proto-Indo European "to ferment, become sour" but this is contested, and ost comes from Proto-Indo European "sap"/"juice"/"broth", seen also in Latin ius="gravy"/"broth"/"soup"/"sauce".

See e.g. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cheese

Interestingly, the pronounciation guide for origin of ost is /ˈjus.tɑz/ which seems a lot like the Finnish word for cheese, "juusto".

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#635

Post by yencabulator »

ethbr0 wrote: post #456
marvin wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of cheese, I've had a long-running discussion with French extended family regarding exactly what the words refer to. Norwegian 'cheese' = 'ost', and we refer to the brown cheese produced by boiling and solidifying the left-over whey fluid from cheese production as 'brunost'; 'brown cheese'. This product is important in cultures where food security and calories are held at a premium. My French relatives ho…

> the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words Good point. I have yet to see a dictionary that also provides delineation with similar-but-different words and describes the differences. That'd be very useful for language learners, as colloquial use often eschews definition in favor of socially common convention. I.e. "That word does mean that,…

Yes, and figuring out the differences is sometimes a challenge for English-as-second-language people. Finnish uses one word for both foot and leg, and if you want to say foot you say "leg table" (the horizontal part of the leg). Similar with hand/arm. In the other direction, Finnish has separate words for the front and back of your neck (and I don't mean just throat).

If I kick my foot on a rock, I may say something out loud about hurting my leg. That doesn't sound right to native speaker.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#636

Post by willyt »

jrockway wrote: post #558
willyt wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they sometimes call the thing that steers the nose wheel the tiller.

Yup, you're exactly right. I totally forgot about that. Thinking about it more, the rudder and tiller might be different things on ships too; I think a rudder you turn right to go right, and a tiller you turn left to go right, because of where the pivot point is? It's a good thing I'm not at the helm ;)

On a boat the rudder is technically the blade that cuts through the water and the tiller is the thing that gives you enough leverage to apply force to control the direction of the rudder as it passes through the water; sometimes quite a lot of force is needed! Only quite small boats have tillers that you can directly manipulate. Larger boats typically have a wheel which controls hydraulic rams which manipulate the ‘tiller’
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