Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#631

Post by usrusr » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #500

usrusr wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

> As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked... Do you feel the same way about your home? Your day's itinerary will inevitably have to see you return there, too. Too see the other side, it may be useful to think of a personal car as home-like transportation infrastructure and always using public transit…

No, because I'm very much used to having a permanent place of residence. But I'd expect a nomadizing homeless to feel exactly as you described about permanent homes (not necessarily as in "would prefer to do without" but as in "there would be some parts of not having one that I'd really miss"). This was my entire point.

People who spent their life in vim don't miss the tiniest bit of whatever Jetbrains products have that isn't in vim, and likewise people who spent their computing life in IntelliJ and the like don't miss anything of what the vim crowd considers essential.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#632

Post by BeFlatXIII » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:19 PM UTC

zip1234 wrote: post #405

thesuitonym wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. Previous generations would just go out for a ride, take the car out on Sunday and and enjoy the scenery. We just don't do that anymore, either because we're more concerned about the environmental effects of driving, or that we just have more interesting things to do. Not to mention, when this idea of "the freedom of a car" came about, ev…

Cars are a classic "tragedy of the commons" due to how much space they take up and the infrastructure they take up. The places where it might've been 'nice to go for a drive' are not that way anymore because they have changed by everyone having a car. The windy country roads without anyone living on them are now filled with people that 'want to live in the country' but ironically do not because everyone wanted that.

> The windy country roads without anyone living on them are now filled with people that 'want to live in the country' but ironically do not because everyone wanted that.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#633

Post by mcdonje » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:21 PM UTC

tropicalbeach wrote: post #470

usrusr wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

You still have that freedom to walk anywhere after parking you know. I have done this 100’s of times. Just park then from there go anywhere you want then just take a taxi or lyft back to your car. Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Driving is much better unless you live in a large city like NY or LA. My own climate control, radio for music and podcasts, plus driving is therapeutic. I…

>I hate being around so many people packed in a train, airplane, bus

I hate being in traffic. On a bus, people are around but you usually don't have to think about them. You can read a book. In traffic, people aren't next to you, but you have to constantly pay attention to them.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#634

Post by CalRobert » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

hooverd wrote: post #602

Xylakant wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing that is the entire goal of the "anti-car" crowd, right? They want city-planers to build neighborhoods that are walkable, accessible by public transport and don't require owning a car. And they want them everywhere, for everyone.

The anti-car crowd has in the US has that new convert zeal. If you poke them enough, a lot will say that no one anywhere should be allowed to own a car. Not that are cities aren't horribly car centric though, but I don't think we should empty out the countryside to get rid of cars.

I'm deep in the anti-car crowd and virtually _nobody_ says that.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#635

Post by CalRobert » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

65 wrote: post #553

CalRobert wrote: post #101

It's been a decade-long journey but my wife and I finally got EU citizenship and are picking where to live (Utrecht and Freiburg are the frontrunners) specifically so our child can have a proper, independent childhood, and not the painfully lonely, infantilizing, ones we had in stroad-infested Californian suburbs. We're not young! But I applaud this development.

What is the need to move to the EU? You can find walkable US cities in places like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, etc. Perhaps you'd like the North East.

I don't like the US. There are more reasons than walkability.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#636

Post by CalRobert » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:23 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #451

CalRobert wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly helps! But in California (my home) at least neighbourhoods that are walkable and nice often have very expensive homes. We liked South Park, San Diego, but there were almost no homes under $1 million for instance.

Changing that is the entire goal of the "anti-car" crowd, right? They want city-planers to build neighborhoods that are walkable, accessible by public transport and don't require owning a car. And they want them everywhere, for everyone.

We definitely want them available to everyone! strongtowns.org/ were at the forefront of this and they're not even "anti-car" really, just "anti-forced-car". It shouldn't be illegal to open a restaurant without a bunch of parking around it, etc.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#637

Post by Xylakant » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #628

Xylakant wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People upthread ran the numbers and arrived at 600 USD/month for a used car. Seems high to me, but I don't know how the math works out in the US. For Germany, this is a pretty good modeling of the costs https://financer.com/de/blog/was-kostet-ein-auto-im-monat/ and it still arrives at 240 EUR/month for a used car. That's maybe not 20 cab rides, but still a significant number. Obviously, the math I did for me works ou…

I've no idea for US either, but 600 USD/mo looks weird. For me here in Lithuania it was cheaper than that even while I was paying off my car. Now driving a paid-off-but-well-maintained car is more like €150/month for ~ 1k km a month with occasional maintenance, insurance and rare downtown parking. Obviously it is higher than that when including previous lease payments, but historical price is going down every month.…

By "were honest" I mostly mean "honest with themselves". There are a lot of costs that are easy to forget or ignore. The cost of parking in the city. The occasional repair. Having to tow your car, because it broke. Deprecation of a valuable asset. Very few people take stock of what they actually spend on their car, because it's hard and it's constantly shifting. Some costs are annually and (mostly) independent of your annual mileage - insurance and tax, for example. Others are constant and directly associated with your mileage - fuel. Yet, others again are directly associated but come in lumps - maintenance, tires, ... Deprecation is fuzzy and partially outside of any factor you can control, etc.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#638

Post by bluecalm » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

runako wrote: post #62

david-gpu wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike sharing services are great in those situations. You don't even need to carry your bike in the train. There is also public transit like trams and buses.

Gentle reminder that a significant portion of society is not able to carry out trips on bikes due to infirmity, disability, or needing to convey someone who cannot bike (e.g. small children).

Those people can still ride mobility scooters, e-bikes, small electric vehicles (like golf carts) but often can't drive. Car centric world means exclusion for those groups.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#639

Post by BeFlatXIII » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #279

ghaff wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of younger people who choose to live in a city, especially new grads, are essentially continuing their college experience. A lot of friends probably live in the city too. They can often bum transportation/do joint activities from friends who do own cars and are mostly fine with minimizing out of city activities that require a car. They also restrict themselves to jobs they can easily get to. Which in te…

Wow. That seems such a sad and limiting way to live your life. I love how I can use my cars to go anywhere at any time without depending on anyone else. And my family and I do a lot of optional activities. Different perspective, I guess.

Depends on the options available in your city. It's like the arguments against piracy based on the fear that no one will make books or movies ever again. Even if true, the existing stock has far more than anyone can enjoy in a single lifetime.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#640

Post by ldhough » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

tropicalbeach wrote: post #470

usrusr wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

You still have that freedom to walk anywhere after parking you know. I have done this 100’s of times. Just park then from there go anywhere you want then just take a taxi or lyft back to your car. Public transport sucks, not sure why so many people people like it. Driving is much better unless you live in a large city like NY or LA. My own climate control, radio for music and podcasts, plus driving is therapeutic. I…

I recently moved from a Florida city (after growing up in Florida suburbs) to DC and left my car behind. Not sure if DC counts as a "large" city in this context as it certainly a lot smaller than NYC or LA but the public transit and walkability are excellent and were huge motivations for me to move here.

In Florida everything requires a car, even in the cities you still need one let alone the suburbs. From other places I've visited in the US it seems like Florida is far from unique in this regard. It can easily be a 20+ minute drive to get dinner, go to the grocery store, etc. Driving requires constant focus to be safe (and is still pretty dangerous) while I can read on my phone on the metro (plus most trips are shorter). Most of the time I can just walk and don't even need to take the metro which is good exercise and a good time to think. Sitting in traffic was a common occurrence and and I can't think of anything as annoying that happened as often.

If I do need to take a long trip I can rent a car or use Uber, ends up being far cheaper than frequently filling a gas tank and all the other maintenance involved in car ownership even though I had cheap insurance and no car payments.

To each their own but those are the reasons why I personally much prefer public transit to driving, although I wouldn't say I like either. Walking however I enjoy greatly.