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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#631

Post by panick21_ »

marricks wrote: post #558
panick21_ wrote: post #410

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives. Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases. The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What the…

Something is changing and it’s very broken so people are paying attention to it. If people really wanted to fix transportation that’s great, high speed rail and public transportation reducing the number of cars on the road seem to be the best solution. But hey, Elon’s hyper loop was a publicity stunt to discourage investment in that. So I say, whether you want to shit on Tesla or public roads, shit on Elon.

> reducing the number of cars on the road seem to be the best solution.

No actually its actually not. Less concession in a system that depends on concession for safety will lead to more accident not less.

That is what was shown during Covid, less driving, but accidents per mile went up.

So yes, of course public transport, bikes are great, but if you don't fix the underlying problem in the road system, you are gone have a whole lot of accidents.

> But hey, Elon’s hyper loop was a publicity stunt to discourage investment in that.

This is a claim some guy has made, not the truth. What is more likely is that Musk actually thinks Hyperloop is great (its his idea after all) and would have wanted investment in it.

> shit on Elon

I prefer not to shit on people most of the time.

Musk is the outcome of a South Africa/American way of thought that is more in line with the US avg then most people who advocate for public transport. That is the sad reality.

And the problem in the US road system or the US bad public transport can 100% not be blamed on him. There are many people with far more responsibility that deserve to be shit on far more.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#632

Post by panick21_ »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #625
panick21_ wrote: post #410

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives. Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases. The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What the…

I spent 6 months driving a 2019 Hyundai with lane assist and radar cruise control. Personally it's almost perfect. If you added some smart road features - to improve lane assist and better sign readability (to drop the speed as I enter town or curve and increase when I leave one). I don't need full self driving, just an improvement on speed control and some lane assist. Would smart roads be expensive? RFID responders…

> Would smart roads be expensive? RFID responders seem super cheap compared to how much actual asphalt costs. Authorities are currently unable to remotely control flows, speeds and safety which is completely bonkers.

Yeah its not actually that easy. Go and look into train signaling. And cars are not even able to do coupling.

Making a train system operate like a super-railway with cars is crazy difficult and has never been done before.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#633

Post by Barrin92 »

kbos87 wrote: post #430

The amount of hyperbole and completely uninformed takes around FSD is eye opening. I’ll completely agree that “Full self driving” is a misleading name, and they should be forced to change it, full stop. That being said, it’s exceptionally clear that all the responsibility is on you, the driver, while you are using it. The messaging in the vehicle is concise and constant (not just the wall of text you read when opting…

>That being said, it’s exceptionally clear that all the responsibility is on you, the driver

Virtually every study ever done on human-machine interaction shows that users will inevitably lose reaction time and attention when they are engaged with half automated systems given that constant context switching creates extreme issues.

Waymo did studies on this in the earlier days and very quickly came to the conclusion that it's full autonomy or nothing. Comparisons to human performance are nonsensical because machines don't operate like human beings. If factory floor robots had the error rate of a human being you'd find a lot of limbs on the floor. When we interact with autonomous systems that a human can never predict precision needs to far exceed that of a human being for the cooperation to work. A two ton blackbox moving at speeds that kill people is not something any user can responsibly engage with at all.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#634

Post by panick21_ »

deckard1 wrote: post #440
panick21_ wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that almost no other car company is yet seriously fixing things with OTA. And 99% of cars on the road don't have OTA. So fixing the naming will likely happen but it will take a while. Its crazy that Tesla has been doing OTA for 10+ years and today many cars are released that are not capable of being upgraded. And even those few cars that do support OTA only support it for a very limited amount of syste…

What is made easy will become inevitable. OTA updates carry a perverse set of incentives. Look at the gaming industry. They went from putting out rock solid games because of necessity (the reality of publishing physical cartridges and CD-ROMs without network updates) to the absolute dogshit of No Man's Sky and Cyberpunk 2077. Gamers have effectively become an extension of QA to the point that some game devs simply st…

Game developers don't face the same level regulatory and potential legal issues.

I do share your concern, but I still likely prefer it to that to software that can never be updated at all.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#635

Post by kayodelycaon »

mrguyorama wrote: post #549
diebeforei485 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Propellant for the return trip can be made on Mars using the Sabatier process. This has been known for decades. (This is why the engines for Starship are designed to use methane). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct

The CONCEPT has been known for decades. Who has put a fuel processing facility on mars? I think there was some minor chemistry experiment on one of the rovers to go in that direction. The raw energy required to make that fuel, using ANY conceivable process, is extreme though. What energy solution has been proposed? How much solar acreage do you need? How will you keep the dust off the panels? Will there be any option…

> How will you keep the dust off the panels?

Assuming there are people involved, give them a broom. ;)

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#636

Post by dkarl »

clnq wrote: post #481
diebeforei485 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.

It seems to me that calling it a "recall" emphasises the severity of the problem, which might make it easier to argue that a lot is being done for customer safety to the interested authorities. But I don't think Tesla wants this to be seen more than an OTA update from the perspective of their customers (at least those who ignore Tesla news). I had a VW car that was "recalled" shortly following the emissions scandal.…

If you want owners to understand that it's a serious safety issue, the word "recall" won't help. Most recalls are for minor, non-safety-related issues. My car has had a few recalls, and none were urgent, just things that got replaced for free the next time I brought my car in for service.

"Critical safety defect" would be better.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#637

Post by [deleted] »

SomaticPirate wrote: post #498
orthecreedence wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're actually serious about this, we should get rid of roads altogether and replace them with rail tracks. That solves 95% of the automation problem anyway.

US passenger rail is unsafe. We have no way near the level of sophistication of European passenger rail transport. We have a significantly higher number of derailments. Even the worst European rail is more safe than US rail.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#638

Post by dylan604 »

93po wrote: post #593
dylan604 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and speed of pushing stuff to customers (on the order of days) well, if you don't get the software pushed to the QA team (the customers), how else are they going to get it tested?

can we please stop with this disinformation? the customers are not the QA team.

what do you call them? there's no way possible that they can make changes to the software and have them thoroughly vetted before the OTA push. Tesla does not have enough cars owned by the company driving on public roads to vet these changes. The QA team at best can analyze the data received from the customers. That makes the customers the testers in my book.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#639

Post by Veserv »

ggreer wrote: post #580
Veserv wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It uses maps for that. I have a winding road near me with a speed limit of 35 mph, but 15 mph on certain curves as indicated by a speed limit sign. It ignores those speed limit signs and will attempt to make the turns at 35 mph resulting in it wildly swerving into the other lane and around a blind turn with maybe 30 feet of visibility. It has also attempted to do it so poorly that it would have driven across the lane…

I'm talking about standard speed limit signs. You're talking about the signs that warn about sharp turns and advise maximum speeds. Yes it would be good if the software understood those signs, but that's a different issue. Teslas definitely read speed limit signs. I've had mine correctly detect and follow speed limits in areas without connectivity or map data. It also follows speed limits on private drives (if there…

So they read some, but not all speed limit signs, and especially not the really important ones that inform you that you will be going dangerously fast if you do not read and follow them. That is criminally unacceptable.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#640

Post by philosopher1234 »

panick21_ wrote: post #631
marricks wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something is changing and it’s very broken so people are paying attention to it. If people really wanted to fix transportation that’s great, high speed rail and public transportation reducing the number of cars on the road seem to be the best solution. But hey, Elon’s hyper loop was a publicity stunt to discourage investment in that. So I say, whether you want to shit on Tesla or public roads, shit on Elon.

> reducing the number of cars on the road seem to be the best solution. No actually its actually not. Less concession in a system that depends on concession for safety will lead to more accident not less. That is what was shown during Covid, less driving, but accidents per mile went up. So yes, of course public transport, bikes are great, but if you don't fix the underlying problem in the road system, you are gone ha…

What is the underlying problem? I keep looking for it in your comments
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