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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

theautopian.com

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#631

Post by throwaheyy »

mtsr wrote: post #366
prmoustache wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly applicable if there is no sudden lane change. True you should always keep a safe enough distance for you to react and brake in any case with the car in front of you. If that car was too close on another lane, switch to yours and brake simultaneously this is a bit different.

The whole scenario would look very similar if the Tesla was a car suffering from a breakdown and moving to the safest lane it can reach safely. In such a case we would also expect other drivers to pay enough attention to prevent an accident like this...

No, it wouldn’t in a breakdown situation in any other car, the driver would try to pull over to the right.

Most drivers gain an instinct to passing slower/stopped objects on the left, and a natural aversion to passing them on the right.

The Tesla pulled over and stopped in the far left lane. No “space” was left to pass it.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#632

Post by typon »

joshlemer wrote: post #372
suslik wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just solve the problem by banning motorcycles. Motorcycles should stay on race tracks where they belong, not on foggy roads with tired commuters. Same with normal bikes, by the way: cycling on the same road with fast-driving cars should not be an actual phenomenon. I cycle to work every day, and love it, but would never do it if there wasn't a separate bike lane.

You’re right, wherever there aren’t protected bike lanes, we should ban cars

You are being sarcastic - but this mindset change should happen in American cities if we are to move towards a sustainable future. We should have regular roads for bicyclists and pedestrians and "car lanes" on some roads, "truck lanes" on others etc.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#633

Post by 93po »

toast0 wrote: post #240
somethoughts wrote: post #65

I think what's interesting here is it's likely the first instance where Tesla FSD has been involved in an accident which affected other drivers. [Edit] From the video the Tesla is making a lane change and stopping simultaneously which means there could be a case of the Tesla FSD/driver doing a unsafe lane change.[1] Most of the time FSD just wrecks the Tesla itself or injures the driver of the Tesla (i.e. running int…

> It will be interesting if Tesla comes in to provide monetary support for proving the legal case that Tesla FSD is not at fault or the Tesla driver (and his insurance) will be left to fend for themselves. > In the short term I could see Tesla not supporting the driver and absolving themselves via fine line/TOS, etc. > But the long term effects of not legally supporting any driver with Tesla FSD accidents will be tha…

> refuses to cooperate with the NTSB

This is completely false. Tesla is legally required, and complies every time, to release crash data to the NTSB. This data includes whether or not self driving was enabled.

> Tesla publicly disparages people

Tesla refutes that self driving is enabled when people lie about it. I am sure there is an incident or two of someone being sassy about calling out these lies but there is no trend of "disparagement"

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#634

Post by Balgair »

gfodor wrote: post #57
gundmc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the car was in "Full Self Driving" and not "Autopilot"?

It’s unclear because FSD is supposed to switch to autopilot on highways. The driver said it was in FSD mode but they may just not realize that switchover occurs.

CHP also said it was in FSD mode.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#635

Post by 93po »

ajross wrote: post #258
osigurdson wrote: post #247

I think the insistence on having data for every possible situation for training purposes is indicative of the problem. Humans only require a small amount of training and can extrapolate this to many situations.

This is really very wrong. Human beings create exactly this kind of accident every day. There is absolutely nothing remotely"non-human" about cutting someone off and stopping in traffic.[1] Just go check /r/idiotsincars for an hour to see much, much worse. [1] In fact, this is so unlike FSD's behavior that I still think it's more likely that it will turn out not to have been in use at all. The only evidence at hand i…

People lie about having FSD enabled all the time. And the internet loves shitting on Tesla so they'll treat unverified claims as fact and then perpetuate it forever as long as it fits their narrative.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#636

Post by 93po »

trabant00 wrote: post #511

> if the Level 2 paradigm was flipped, where the driver was always in control, but the semi-automated driving system was doing the monitoring, and was ready to take over [...] but would be less sexy in that the act of driving wouldn’t feel any different I think this is the the most important point of the article and largely ignored here in the comments who seem to focus mostly on who was to blame for this specific ac…

If there are fewer accidents per X miles with FSD, then I don't see how you can claim anything is at the expense of safety.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#637

Post by paledot »

maury91 wrote: post #583
MengerSponge wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But motorcyclists rank just above bicyclists, and just below deer. Nobody actually gets in trouble for hitting them on the road. I would love to see manslaughter charges for more accidents. If I do a whoopsie and stab someone in my home, I'm not going to get off with a "oh my god I'm so sorry! I was tired and it was foggy." People driving should be extended the same courtesy.

Honestly it feels like a car is the perfect murder weapon, if you want to kill someone you can ran over that person, especially if that person is on a bike, and you will get a reduced sentence compared to if you did that with what is normally considered a weapon ( knife, gun, ... ) I think if you endanger someone’s life with anything, be it a car, motorcycle, knife, gun, hands; you should always get the same sentence

This came up a lot in my criminology program in university. Criminologists (especially students) spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about how to kill people and get away with it. General consensus is with a car.

The crazy part is that whether or not you knew the person you ran over in your car can factor heavily into charges and sentencing.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#639

Post by 93po »

nextstep wrote: post #421

This story also highlights just how little Elon Musk actually supports free speech. Since fighting for release of this video and publishing the story, Ken Klippenstein has been censored on Twitter through shadow bans and inability to find his profile through search. https://twitter.com/stevanzetti/status/1613295292283236358

Ken was deprioritized from search weeks ago. Also he wasn't shadow banned - just deprioritized (you have to type his full name to see his result). Can we please stop with the unfounded hyperbole?

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#640

Post by toast0 »

93po wrote: post #633
toast0 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will be interesting if Tesla comes in to provide monetary support for proving the legal case that Tesla FSD is not at fault or the Tesla driver (and his insurance) will be left to fend for themselves. > In the short term I could see Tesla not supporting the driver and absolving themselves via fine line/TOS, etc. > But the long term effects of not legally supporting any driver with Tesla FSD accidents will be tha…

> refuses to cooperate with the NTSB This is completely false. Tesla is legally required, and complies every time, to release crash data to the NTSB. This data includes whether or not self driving was enabled. > Tesla publicly disparages people Tesla refutes that self driving is enabled when people lie about it. I am sure there is an incident or two of someone being sassy about calling out these lies but there is no…

>> refuses to cooperate with the NTSB

> This is completely false.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-won-apos-t-formally-140...

>> Tesla publicly disparages people

> Tesla refutes that self driving is enabled when people lie about it. I am sure there is an incident or two of someone being sassy about calling out these lies but there is no trend of "disparagement"

Does any other car company have a habit of responding in public like this?

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-last-week%E2%80%99s-accide...

Given the deceased is not able to share their side of the story, I don't feel like it's appropriate to air this in public like this. Keep in mind that while they are saying the hands were not detected on the wheel, they can't say if hands were or were not on the wheel and there were many contemperaneous reports of poor sensing. This should really just be in the accident report, not aired by Tesla, regardless of fault. Maybe that's not disparagement, but again, do other automakers push this kind of narrative or is it only Tesla? What did Toyota say during the unintended accelleration issues a decade ago? As I recall, mostly they were blaming floormats, not drivers?

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