Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#631

Post by Closi » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:05 PM UTC

twayt wrote: post #599

Closi wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your post paints a false dichotomy. It's not always a choice between working from home and commuting huge distances to an office in a city you hate. I live 10 minutes from the office and live in a town I love. This isn't luck - it's a choice I have made. Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but some of your comments make it sound like you might be in the category of people who don't find it as easy as…

> I think your post paints a false dichotomy Nope. Never said it is "always a choice between working from home and commuting huge distances to an office in a city you hate". It is a counterpoint to the original comment that hypothesizes that most people who enjoy working from home do so due to some social deficit. > people who don't find it as easy as others to form relationships with colleagues in real life If you r…

> Second, I am not going to take it the wrong way, but your comment makes it seem like you have some insight into a complete stranger's life without any information to go off of.

I mean it was just a hunch, but looking at your comment history definitely implies it too.

For instance, while your response states that you are comfortable getting lunch your post history says this:

> Feel like a social failure during lunch and forced to sit passively as a couple douchebag workers on adderall dominate the conversation? [I] Feel like a bitch for a few hours.

Which implies the opposite.

> Attractive coworker or someone I want to impress within sight? I can’t concentrate on actual productivity and try to overcompensate by typing more and acting zoned in.

> I find that I get more emotionally jerked around working in person and can insulate myself from it working from home.

I mean all this seems to follow the same idea. It’s totally cool, each to their own and it’s fine, but to me this matches the trend that some people working from home don’t seem to have the same ease at forming relationships in work in real life.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#632

Post by wfhordie » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

I’m not sure what you’re trying to imply with the first paragraph, but let me tell you how it sounds to me:

“Hot take: people who have a different work style preference than me are inferior and damaged, and/or have motives which I despise or work a job I think is useless.”

Rethink this. These are your colleagues. Compassion for people who are different from you improves your own humanity and makes working with you more enjoyable.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#633

Post by orestarod » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:17 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #536

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

We have a mandatory in office policy. We communicate through slack while inside the office.

Huh?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#634

Post by paulryanrogers » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:29 PM UTC

TsomArp wrote: post #617

chrisan wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work lives and struggle to form meaningful friendships/relationships with colleagues. Absolutely not true. I've been WFH since 2008. Many followed overtime and the company went full WFH in 2015 closing our office. We have a video call 3x a week and shoot the shit learn about each others lives just the same before we t…

Our minds and bodies are made for "real-reality" and not for "virtual-reality". That is one of the reasons why you cannot turn a webcam on a beach and say you are on holidays on the Caribe. Even if you heard all the sounds and try to relax, is not the same.

Work and leisure are very different. When relaxing between work sessions I'd usually rather read IRL with my 4yo than chat IRL with same coworkers I've already spent the morning with.

While working I prefer control over interruptions and means of communication. And there are no emergencies in my line of work that require physical interruption.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#635

Post by paulryanrogers » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

orestarod wrote: post #633

Closi wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

We have a mandatory in office policy. We communicate through slack while inside the office. Huh?

Saw this at a hybrid company. Chat wasn't required over Slack. Though if it was a work topic requiring a remote coworker (like myself) then sometimes they'd use a conference room and call to bring in remote folks, or everyone would go back to desks for the call.

Occasional all hands conferences provided some IRL a few times a year. IME these weren't strictly necessary yet did provide a chance to bond with the people on the other side of the glass.

Career wise I do think that fully remote can be a boon to shorter and less attractive coworkers, since it reduces or eliminates some of the tall+beautiful biases.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#636

Post by [deleted] » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #536

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

[deleted]

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#637

Post by escapedmoose » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #536

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

This is me. Doesn’t help that I’ve been the youngest person on every team I’ve worked on, usually by at least a decade. I’m polite and friendly with my coworkers, but I’ve never felt enough of a connection with any of them to want to continue the relationship outside of work.

I prefer working from home for other reasons as well, but certainly avoiding the annoyance of coworkers I don’t like all that much is part of it.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#638

Post by paulryanrogers » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

nchi3 wrote: post #627

thefz wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warning: Hot Take. Not all jobs require you to form meaningful relationships with colleagues and those relationships can be kept at a distance. I'd hate to have "friends" on the workplace.

Why? You'll spend a huge time of your life working, why is it not worth it to build relationships? You don't have to meet them in your free time to consider them friends.

In the US you may have to change jobs frequently or accept pitiful raises. If your healthcare and social circle become too tied to one employer then leaving or being fired could be a huge change.

Building a professional network is important, and some bonding is natural, so I don't mean to discourage them. Though I do prefer seeking most social fulfillment through other means.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#639

Post by the_only_law » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:39 PM UTC

escapedmoose wrote: post #637

Closi wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

This is me. Doesn’t help that I’ve been the youngest person on every team I’ve worked on, usually by at least a decade. I’m polite and friendly with my coworkers, but I’ve never felt enough of a connection with any of them to want to continue the relationship outside of work. I prefer working from home for other reasons as well, but certainly avoiding the annoyance of coworkers I don’t like all that much is part of i…

> This is me. Doesn’t help that I’ve been the youngest person on every team I’ve worked on, usually by at least a decade.

This tends to be me both at work and basically in every social setting. I’ve also never really formed more than a highly casual acquaintanceship at work with usually doesn’t follow a job hop.

I prefer remote now. It lets me squeeze in a little more sleep that would otherwise be used to get ready and go to an office where I’d have to sit in the morning and listen to people around me ramble on and I just gets tiring.

At home I control everything about comfort the setting and I’m not losing much I’d gain in-office.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#640

Post by manuelabeledo » Sun, May 08, 2022, 1:39 PM UTC

maratc wrote: post #585

manuelabeledo wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In exchange, now you have proper record of everything said and done. I love the fact that I can always go back to Slack and say “See? This is what we agreed upon”, instead of having to recall the specifics of a meeting where notes weren’t taken in detail.

Much is still being said in person or calls, because talking is much more efficient than writing, so ... no, we don't "have proper record of everything said and done."

Yet we should.