Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

sfstandard.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

631–640 of 748 posts

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#631

Post by CountDrewku »

koheripbal wrote: post #606
bko wrote: post #56

This is one of those issues that I can't understand the opposing argument. It's just an issue I find so objectionable that I cannot understand why anyone would be imposing this. Literally holding kids back. The only defense I hear is that kids don't really benefit from advanced classes and they'll be fine anyway. But gifted children will not necessarily be fine. Most of the smartest people I know struggled in school…

The argument is that African American students perform poorly in these subjects on average, and it impacts their grades and thus impacts their college admissions. So the only way to even the playing field is to eliminate difficult subjects in high school, so that everyone gets near-perfect grades.

And that's a completely racist argument. The irony in the people pushing these ideas is astounding. They've basically taken an easy political out and instead of doing the hard work and realizing that African Americans can meet the same standards they've basically just said "nah they're too stupid so we'll lower our standards to make their grades look better."

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#632

Post by officeplant »

gumby wrote: post #502
userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

>2 - kids who have parents who can afford tutors and such can push the kids through the prescribed steps sooner.

Personally I was lucky my dad was running a computer repair business from the 80's onward. Growing up with a computer and a mountain of pirated educational software prepped me more than anything else my parents could have done. They lucked out that I particularly enjoyed learning.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#633

Post by rsj_hn »

FYI, this was already done in San Francisco. There is a twitter thread where someone FOIAed SF unified school district stats to confirm their claims that this change would be beneficial if extended to the state as a whole. Here is what they found:

1. Enrollment in AP Calculus decreased and enrollment in AP stats increased:

    AP Calc BC -27%
    AP Calc AB -12%
    AP Stats +30%
The number of african americans taking AP calculus declined by 54%.

2. The percentage of students who met CAASPP standards dropped from 53% to 49%

https://twitter.com/SteveMillerOC/status/1400948830397341698

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#634

Post by CountDrewku »

dekhn wrote: post #527
unanswered wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please show me the part of my comment where I alleged a conspiracy? Or said anything about the woke?

Everything except the first sentence is "woke". You're literally suggesting the people who are doing this are doing it to perpetuate (professional/technical) class;' "The real goal of this change is to increase the gap between kids whose family situation will give them an opportunity to learn actual math before college, and those whose family situation will keep them permanently locked out of college"

The alternative is that the people doing it are complete imbeciles. Which is it? Do you think they're so mentally deficient they don't understand what they're doing? Or are they doing it for a malevolent reason?

I happen to think it's the latter. It may just be as simple as wanting to stay in office or to bump their numbers up and appear to be doing more than they are. I refuse believe there are this many clueless individuals in high ranking positions.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#635

Post by ahartmetz »

zozbot234 wrote: post #609
polaris_mars wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I would add that the spirit of system is realising that people have different abilities and training them accordingly to their potential, and there is nothing wrong with that. Realschule and Hauptschule are not there to try to get everyone back into gymnasium track. The merits of Realschule and Hauptschule are well established in society since they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and tech…

> they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and technical jobs e.g. doing machine maintenance in factories and so on. These jobs are going away in the near future. Nowadays the only people who work in factories are highly skilled engineers with complex e.g. CNC skills and a heavy math background.

How are you so sure about all that? I don't see which upcoming development would make machine setup, maintenance and repairs go away. It's exactly the stuff that computers are not good at. It's things that require high dexterity, improvisation, interaction with business functions etc - things that computers and robots are not good at.

I have a personal corollary to the Dunning-Kruger effect: If you don't understand why something is difficult, you are completely clueless about it. And most things are difficult in some way.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#636

Post by yorwba »

zozbot234 wrote: post #609
polaris_mars wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I would add that the spirit of system is realising that people have different abilities and training them accordingly to their potential, and there is nothing wrong with that. Realschule and Hauptschule are not there to try to get everyone back into gymnasium track. The merits of Realschule and Hauptschule are well established in society since they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and tech…

> they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and technical jobs e.g. doing machine maintenance in factories and so on. These jobs are going away in the near future. Nowadays the only people who work in factories are highly skilled engineers with complex e.g. CNC skills and a heavy math background.

A CNC mill is a machine that needs to be maintained and operated by someone, and that someone is more likely to have learned the necessary practical skills in an apprenticeship and/or at a vocational school than at a university. You don't need a university degree to be a highly skilled worker, especially for jobs that require more practical experience than theoretical knowledge.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#637

Post by foxhop »

vanusa wrote: post #629
foxhop wrote: post #582

We have observed that physical distancing children hurt a lot of children. It was a sacrifical experiment to try to save the elderly and weak. When the virus leaked from the Wuhan laboratory and spread across the globe in a matter of months, we knew even then that children are not really at risk of dying from sars-cov-2. Seems like the correct course of action for the times is to take education out of the hands of go…

When the virus leaked from the Wuhan laboratory and spread across the globe in a matter of months, If this is what gets "taught" around the dinner table at home ... then in such a house, all STEM education will be moot.

Prove me wrong.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#638

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

batter wrote: post #612
linuxftw wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. The purpose of public school is to provide a basic education. If you want to do more work, or your parents want you to study more, you're free to do so. In your very own example, you went to a private school and did well. That's great, that's what's supposed to happen. What's currently happening in public schools is that too many resources are being allocated to the over achievers and not en…

Except one thing - even if you're in private school you have to pay for both. For public via taxes and private from your own pocket. It sound more like double tax for smart kids - knowledge for rich only. And just to remind that school price can be on par with University.

I don't think that's particularly fair. We all pay into the basic social programs. I don't have children but I'm still paying into the public system and I don't believe I'm being unfairly taxed. To be able to afford to pay into the private school is a luxury.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#639

Post by CWuestefeld »

gumby wrote: post #502
userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

To combine the two: if we can open up opportunities for all the kids aren’t we likely to end up with...

Well, maybe, but you're hiding a lot in that "if we can". You're assuming that this possibility is brought to fruition, and using the shiny abstract potential of that optimization to argue against real-world actual practices, and this is apples versus oranges.

In fact, I have approximately zero confidence that your "if we can" could ever come to pass. Consider the crazy levels of funding that's already pumped into education with no discernible benefit, and the extremely powerful lobbies that work night and day to maintain the status quo (modulo the increases in funding).

In a perfect world without competition for scarce resources we might be able to do what you envision. But starting the project from the current political realities, it's not in the realm of possibility. So let's not let the pipe dream interfere with some way to prevent the status quo from sliding down into even worse territory.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#640

Post by leereeves »

scotty79 wrote: post #630
secondaryacct wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you met a Finnish person? They are introspect to the point of being unable to take part in a conflict, care more about their individual peace than any collective construct. Best in the world ? If you want muted isolated adult, probably.

Honestly this sounds like absolutely wonderful qualities I wished more people in the world had. Nothing screwed us more than willingness of people to take part in conflicts. Imagine how much harm and waste could be avoided if when generals daid, let's go liberate Afghanistan soldiers responded, nah, I'm good rather then collectively following ideas of imaginary Uncle Sam.

Perhaps you might ask the women of Afghanistan if they're happy about Americans recently deciding to avoid conflict there. Except they probably couldn't answer honestly, for fear of being killed by their new rulers.
Post reply on HN