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An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

appleprivacyletter.com

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Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#631

Post by gordon_gee123 »

vineyardmike wrote: post #490
snowwrestler wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this sentiment but the known-bad-image-scanning technology is not new. That’s not what Apple announced. Many tech services already do that, which already enables the slippery slope you’re illustrating here. I’m not trying to minimize the danger of that slope. But as someone who is interested in the particulars of what Apple announced specifically, it is getting tiresome to wade through all the comments from peo…

But now its on your device. "Its just when you upload to icloud or recieve an iMessage" they say. BUT the software's on your device forever. What about next year? What about after an authoritarian goverment approaches them? By 2023 it might be searching non-uploaded photos. You can always not use cloud tech like PhotoDNA but you can't not use software BUILT IN to your device. Especially when its not transparent.

Nothing stopping countries from demanding every tech organization does this anyway, it didnt just become a possibility now Apples running code on-device. Also this code can and probably will be able to be activated/deactivated/removed remotely (for better or worse!)

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#632

Post by zepto »

bisRepetita wrote: post #615
zepto wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They just say it. If we don't know that, we cannot use growing child pornography as an argument to reducing civil liberties. https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/child-predators The FBI says it. People can and do use that argument whether we like it or not.

Yes, they said it in 2011. With just one data point and no trend. Nothing shows here it exploded since. So the FBI and the whole society may have found somewhat effective ways without scanning phones.

I don’t expect to convince you the FBI is right. I am pointing out that other people will be convinced.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#633

Post by JohnFen »

donkeyd wrote: post #4

I recently listened to a Darknet Diaries episode on messaging app Kik. This app is apparently being used by many people to trade child pornography. In this episode, there was some criticism expressed on how Kik doesn't scan all the images on their platform for child pornography. I would really like to hear from people who sign this open letter, how they think about this. Should the internet be a free for all place wi…

> If you want unlimited privacy, at least have the balls to admit that this will allow free trade of CSAM, but also revenge porn, snuff-films and other things like it.

Sure, in exactly the same way that the postal system, parcel delivery services, etc. allow it. But that's not to say that such things are unrestricted -- there are many ways that investigation and enforcement can be done no matter what. It's just a matter of how convenient that is.

It would also restrict CSAM a lot if authorities could engage in unrestricted secret proactive searches of everybody's home, too. I don't see this as being any different.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#634

Post by jtsuken »

ipodopt wrote: post #162
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #105

I know the privacy approach Apple has been pushing was just marketing, but I didn't care too much because I enjoyed my iPhone and M1 macbook. Because of this decision (and the fact that my iPhone more-or-less facilitates poor habits throughout my life), I'm considering moving completely out of the Apple ecosystem. Does anyone have any recommendations for replacements? * On laptops: I have an X1 carbon extreme running…

Laptop | Desktop: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Router: https://www.turris.com/en/omnia/overview/ Media Center: https://osmc.tv/vero/ Cloud (Use TrueNAS Scale): https://www.truenas.com/systems-overview/ Phone: https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ Watch: https://pine64.com/product/pinetime-smartwatch-sealed/ Smart Thermostat: https://hestiapi.com/product/hestiapi-touch-one-free-shippin..…

I think it's about time to say: "Thank you, Apple!" Finally these awesome projects will get the funding and the support they deserve.

Also, has anyone tried the FXtec phones? https://www.fxtec.com I am thinking about getting the FXtec pro1 version, which promises to get a decent UbuntuTouch support as well as lineageOS.

I feel that with the comeback of Vim, there might be a sufficient user base for devices that use the keyboard for most tasks. I miss the days, when I could send a text message without taking the phone out of my pocket.

Edit: Just found a relevant HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26659150

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#635

Post by JohnFen »

robertoandred wrote: post #272
digitalsushi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big reason I don't want someone else scanning my phone (and a year later, my laptop) is that last I checked, software is not perfect, and I don't need the FBI getting called on me cause my browser cache smelled funny to some Apple PhD's machine-learning decision. It's the same reason I don't want police having any opportunistic information about me - both of these have an agenda, and so innocent people get pulled…

The chance of you getting enough false positives to reach the flagging threshold is one in a trillion. And then the manual review would catch the error easily. The FBI won’t be called on you.

> and then the manual review would catch the error easily.

How do we know this? It's not obvious to me that this system would work well for the edge cases that it seems intended for.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#636

Post by JohnFen »

robertoandred wrote: post #345
chopin wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a claim by Apple. Due to the opaque process this is completely unverifiable. As well this statement relies on the fact that no malicious actor out there is trying to thwart the system. The hashes used are deliberately chosen to easily produce collisions otherwise the system won't work. This almost certainly will be abused.

“This almost certainly will be abused.” is a claim by you and completely unverifiable. Apple has published white papers explaining how their hashing, matching, and cryptography work. How do you see someone thwarting that process specifically?

Easy -- by having the authorities expand what is being searched for.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#637

Post by crocodiletears »

zepto wrote: post #625
crocodiletears wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* drop your phone * don't store images on your phone * use a rom like Graphene, don't install a cloud storage or Google Play Services Those aren't great solutions, but they're options.

They are options that almost nobody can or will use, so they won’t have any impact. If your goal is to inform a small minority of expert users that they should protect themselves against corporate/government encroachment, by the looks of the comments here, I’d say you’ve already succeeded.

I think you're missing my point. You do your best to inform the majority not because the majority will enact change based on it, but so that the minute and disparate slices of the population for whom that information is relevant but might not otherwise have been exposed to it can access it and perform or investigate whatever actions they deem necessary and economical to mediate the potential threat.

This forum is too niche to fulfill that purpose on its own.

The mass distribution of the information, and arguments against apple's behavior should be intended to incidentally target relevant niches beyond technically expert circles of which the communicator is unaware.

That the argument and resolution of these issues is irrelevant to most of those who will be exposed to it is immaterial.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#638

Post by JohnFen »

donkeyd wrote: post #68
aidenn0 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't use a service that performs dragnet surveillance on my communication. The US Postal service does not open every single letter to check if it contains illegal material. If I rent a storage unit, the storage company does not open up my boxes to see if I have albums of child pornography. This move by Apple is equivalent. I'm going to turn this around and say that those in favor of Apple's move: "Should the inter…

> The US Postal service does not open every single letter to check if it contains illegal material. You'd be surprised about the amount of packages that gets x-rayed in order to find drugs. But yes, you're 100% right that it's not all of them.

It is illegal for the USPS to look at the contents of first class mail except with a court order.

Other classes of mail may have less stringent protections. For instance, third class (and maybe second class, I forget) mail can be opened to make sure that the things it contains are allowed to be mailed in that class.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#639

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #626
babesh wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read through your comments on the article. You are the bogeyman. Good bye. You are the one promoting the latest false middle ground along an actual sliding slope. That is disingenuous.

Can you describe the middle ground that I have ignored? What disingenuous argument have I made? The only thing I have argued for is for hackers to attempt technical solutions that are more to their liking than Apple’s, because arguments are not preventing the slide.

I am saying that you are promoting a slippery ground falsely as middle ground.

Basically the argument I hear from you is “If you build a back door, then people will use it. So let’s build it anyway because it is a middle ground.” The problem I have with it is the “let’s build it anyway”.

That seems as clear as day. Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Don’t be an apologist.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#640

Post by mixmastamyk »

ipodopt wrote: post #162
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #105

I know the privacy approach Apple has been pushing was just marketing, but I didn't care too much because I enjoyed my iPhone and M1 macbook. Because of this decision (and the fact that my iPhone more-or-less facilitates poor habits throughout my life), I'm considering moving completely out of the Apple ecosystem. Does anyone have any recommendations for replacements? * On laptops: I have an X1 carbon extreme running…

Laptop | Desktop: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Router: https://www.turris.com/en/omnia/overview/ Media Center: https://osmc.tv/vero/ Cloud (Use TrueNAS Scale): https://www.truenas.com/systems-overview/ Phone: https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ Watch: https://pine64.com/product/pinetime-smartwatch-sealed/ Smart Thermostat: https://hestiapi.com/product/hestiapi-touch-one-free-shippin..…

I just ordered the pinephone! Looking forward to trying it, hope it can keep up with most things I use my 6S for.

Guess, I'll dig out the old digital camera again, since that is a weak point for the pinephone. :-D

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