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America has a drinking problem

theatlantic.com

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Re: America has a drinking problem

#631

Post by tlamponi »

redisman wrote: post #482
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #153

It's hard to reduce the US to a single culture. Alcohol consumption habits vary greatly from region to region, or even city to city depending on where you live. I've noticed that heavy drinkers tend to cluster with other heavy drinkers. The more you see your friends and coworkers binge drinking regularly, the more you feel it's an acceptable and even common behavior. Likewise, non-drinkers tend to cluster with each o…

Europe is exactly the same though. Majority of the countries/people don’t drink fancy wines for dinner but binge drink to party and forget about their troubles. Upper middle class in a few wine producing countries does not create a continental monoculture. Anyone from Northern/Eastern Europe or UK will be shocked by US drinking culture in the opposite direction. My experience of Germany was also certainly not “wine f…

> My experience of Germany was also certainly not “wine for dinner” type of behavior

Do you really suggest they drink hard liquor with dinner itself?

I grew up in northern Italy and spent years in Vienna for study, and did also a fair amount of travel around in Europe, what you seem to suggest just does not rings true for me.

For dinner and lunch it's normally one or a combination of:

* water, with or without CO2

* juice from self-made or store bought syrups (think from local berries or things like elder)

* soft drinks

* beer

* wine

Beer and wine are really not common on workday-lunch (at least if you don't work construction, or have a business dinner), but fairly normal on weekends or holidays, at least in my experience.

And only after dinner, and not always, a single Grappa/Schnaps/Shot is consumed, and that normally only if either people are over, or one dines at a restaurant (especially if it's a more folksy place).

If I go out with my SO to dine it's almost always a combination of water and wine if it's in a restaurant, and soda or beer if it's more street-food like, but never ever did we, or any other people we saw, drank harder liquor to their meal...

Re: America has a drinking problem

#632

Post by hutzlibu »

mushbino wrote: post #628
Sophistifunk wrote: post #423

People have the cause and effect backwards in my opinion. You know why "binge drinking" isn't a problem in Germany, except for when the Australians turn up for Oktoberfest? It's because you can just buy a beer on the side of the road with your currywurst, and drink it without being hassled. If you act up, you get arrested for acting up. Try openly having a few beers in the park in Australia or the US, you'll be run o…

I I think you make some good points as far as general cultural attitudes exacerbating the problem. To an extent, I also think the same can be applied to all drugs. These are social, cultural, and health issues more often than they are criminal issues.

But they certainly become criminal issues if you put them in the criminal corner.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#633

Post by mschuster91 »

SilverRed wrote: post #504
Sophistifunk wrote: post #423

People have the cause and effect backwards in my opinion. You know why "binge drinking" isn't a problem in Germany, except for when the Australians turn up for Oktoberfest? It's because you can just buy a beer on the side of the road with your currywurst, and drink it without being hassled. If you act up, you get arrested for acting up. Try openly having a few beers in the park in Australia or the US, you'll be run o…

The public drinking laws are not because the government thinks the average person can't be trusted. It's because the homeless population has a large drinking problem and it often results in people getting assaulted on the street. These laws let the police do something about this before it results in harm.

> These laws let the police do something about this before it results in harm.

Yeah, as if repression is the answer to homelessness. Homeless people drink or consume other drugs to relieve the various stress associated with being on the street (as evidenced by drinking and drug use amounts immediately going down in housing-first projects), or to self-medicate physical health problems (alcohol is an effective pain number) that the life style brings with it or the mental health conditions that caused their homelessness in the first place.

Actually helping people with housing and healthcare would be a way more efficient usage of public funds than wasting it on police that is using it for power trips against the powerless.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#634

Post by swebs »

panzagl wrote: post #202
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the median American really doesn't drink much - our Puritan values run deep. For many of us, it's not about Puritanical values. We simply choose healthier behaviors. It's true that the median alcohol drinkers in America doesn't drink much at all. The vast majority of alcohol is consumed by 10% of the population. Drinkers tend to cluster with other drinkers, and non-drinkers tend to become less interested with a…

> We simply choose healthier behaviors. Hmm, I wonder where your desire to choose healthier behaviors came from...

Doctors? Research studies? Not from some 16th century English religious movement. I don't know why so many people on this site try to harp on this.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#635

Post by OJFord »

yoz-y wrote: post #629
verst wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 standard drink. Did you know that a US standard drink for beer is 12 ounces (a pint is 16) at 5% alcohol by volume? In the PNW Pints Are the standard size and definitely stronger than 5%. Also the German standard drink size for beer is less than 12 fluid ounces. Similar differences exist for other beverage types. These comparisons are not only difficult, but the survey takers vastly underreport their actual consump…

I though the standard beer in Europe was always 500ml.

UK pint is 568ml, a US pint is less than 500ml (because their fl oz are different, and I think even a different number to a 'pint').

Rest of Europe (and Québec) uses 500ml or a litre metric in my experience, yes.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#636

Post by Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL »

Whenever I explain the "USA" to (Eastern) Europeans, I always simply state the notion: "diverse country of the extremes".

Yes, widespread obesity, but health obsessions also run deep in that country, gym memberships, elite universities with sports programs full of money. How many weird diet fads start basically in the US? Self-help books, alternative gurus, etc.

Bad education? Yes, pretty much. But also some of the best research institutions and universities in the world. Some companies with the highest R&D spending anywhere. Many of the foremost intellectuals end up living there once they enter the international stage.

Backwards, conservative, patriotic? Yes, but also extreme progressive bubbles and widespread leftist sentiments.

"American elitism"? Largely yes in many ways, but also very friendly, welcoming to strangers (even though they are just hyperbole with excitement in many contexts compared to us).

When I read the comment section here it seems like it fits my narrative. The US, country of the extremes. Drinkers, and puritans. Now fight! By the way: The article is so speculative, how can you discuss this in such earnestness? My problem with The Atlantic in general. Many articles are kind of "grand theories based on wild speculation, and creating a narrative out of that", which then has this "intellectual" appearance about it, but says very little. Not convincing at all.

The US is like a social experiment. Deal with your racism, alcohol, health, drug legalization, gender debates, sjw/pc culture, and all that, and please ship the solutions to us, not the movements and the fight (though sadly that doesn't always work out it seems). And before I get angry responses: It's written somewhat tongue in cheek, extend me the courtesy of not assuming the worst about my person.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#637

Post by hutzlibu »

Auracle wrote: post #584
jnathsf wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many have gone California sober [0] - moving away from alcohol to cannabis and psychedlics as a way to be more healthy and sustainable [0] https://www.addictionresource.net/blog/california-sober/

Totally anecdotal, but from knowing heavy lifelong drinkers and heavy lifelong pot smokers, it seems to me that alcohol is worse for your body and marijuana is worse for your brain. Neither are 'healthy' in any sense of the word.

My annectodical experience is, that lifelong heavy drinkers who drink the same as a heavy smoker, are long dead, before reaching the same brain damage as pot smokers.

Brain damage from pot is mostly reversible, though. Damage from alcohol less so.

In either case, Dosis sola facit venenum (only the dose makes the poison).

So a person who used to be a heavy drinker before, would be better off, with a occasional smoke. A heavy pot smoker, with the occasional beer. And the wors of both worlds, is to combine both in excess.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#638

Post by kortilla »

8192kjshad09- wrote: post #551
amscanne wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article is about the harm to society as a whole. Pulling a single line from the article to summarize: > Prof Nutt told the BBC: "Overall, alcohol is the most harmful drug because it's so widely used.

There are lots of ways to measure the harm of drugs. But pretty much all of them result in cannabis being among the least harmful. Another way to measure is the therapuetic index. It's the ratio of the lethal dose divided by the effective dose. It's about 10 for ethanol and 30,000 for cannabis. Larger is safer. This means drinking ~10 times as much as your usual amount of alcohol has a 50% chance of killing you. For…

> Another way to measure is the therapuetic index. It's the ratio of the lethal dose divided by the effective dose. It's about 10 for ethanol and 30,000 for cannabis. Larger is safer.

That’s a pretty pointless indicator. By that measure marijuana is better for you than water.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#639

Post by hutzlibu »

TRcontrarian wrote: post #587
kenneth wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cannabis is in no way healthier than alcohol. It's hard to quantify the damages done by one vs. the other; but there are very serious social and psychological downsides to regular cannabis use.

I've had the misfortune of several alcoholic roommates, and it's disturbing. They'll yell at you, threaten you, get emotional, violent, cry, the whole works, and then deny it all the next morning. In contrast, every regular marijuana user I've known long enough to form a judgement about their habit is very inoffensive to the people around them. It doesn't seem to bleed out into their work and emotional lives as much.…

Heavy marijuhana smokers can show some or all of that traits, too.

But in general if I would have to chooss between a heavy pot smoker and a heavy drinker as roommate, I probably would "prefer" the average marijuanna user

Re: America has a drinking problem

#640

Post by [deleted] »

Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL wrote: post #636

Whenever I explain the "USA" to (Eastern) Europeans, I always simply state the notion: "diverse country of the extremes". Yes, widespread obesity, but health obsessions also run deep in that country, gym memberships, elite universities with sports programs full of money. How many weird diet fads start basically in the US? Self-help books, alternative gurus, etc. Bad education? Yes, pretty much. But also some of the b…

[deleted]
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