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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#631

Post by lrvick »

jmnicolas wrote: post #551
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want I lost about half of my contacts when migrating to Signal, do you really think I can make them install some random app that may or may not work? They already complain that Signal isn't as polished as Whatsapp.

Those that won't respect your ethics are not your friends.

I lost many of my contacts moving to Matrix but earned a lot of new high value ones that share my worldview to continue building a decentralized censorship resistant internet.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#632

Post by jamaicahest »

lrvick wrote: post #503
submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

> The only network services this won't become true of at some point in the future are those with decentralized clients and servers obeying a common documented protocol.

You mean like SMS?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#633

Post by MayeulC »

raziel2p wrote: post #617
lrvick wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can think of it like email. Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. This is the same story on Matrix and what I mean when I say it is a freedom respecting decentralized service. You are also free to run your own DNS to a dedicated EMS instance then later point to y…

Following the e-mail analogy: Inevitably, there will be contacts of yours who didn't get or read your notification, or contacts of yours who aren't in your contacts list.

As I wrote in another comment, portable identities are a matrix spec change I'm quite excited about: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/...

Start on a server, but your real identity is attached to a cryptographic key, not an e-mail-like identifier. That would allow you to move around, and maybe one day get rid of domain names altogether (using something like yggdrasil or tor to host and connect servers, for instance).

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#634

Post by MaxChinni »

boredatworkme wrote: post #565
pojzon wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. They will most likely share metadata about you with facebook to sell that data to push more ads into your face. They may very well sell also data to insurance companies making it harder for you to get insurance. Options are limited only by who would like to pay for info about you.…

Thank you for your response. I think I fully agree with the last line - those who do not care about privacy won't really be affected by this. I have a question to ask. How would this work? Even if for a second we assume that they're able to read all our texts etc., how can they curate that information with insurance companies? What data might the insurance companies be interested in? I would not (and I'm assuming a l…

Let's say they record your position every 15 minutes. (Position can be achieved via Wi-Fi AP names, cell towers, GPS). Let's say you commute everyday to work on a highway and your average speed is 100 Km/h with sometimes a top speed of 150 Km/h. Let's say your position shows that you're every workday near a pub from 17:50 to 19:00. Let's say you're never seen near a gym. Let's say you're sometimes near a medical center specialized in prostatic care. [To be continued]

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#635

Post by est31 »

lrvick wrote: post #588
chalst wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).

Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification. It is one BGP attack or compromised CDN admin way from compromising the masses. This is one of the few points I agree with moxie on. The only safe way to install software on an Android device requires you bootstrap trust via a system supplied package manager that enforces si…

> bypasses signature verification.

APKs do not bypass signature verification. Android still requires all apks to be signed, and only installs updates to apks that were signed by the same original key.

As for BGP attacks, the apk is distributed using TLS, so it needs more than that. That being said, CDN hacks are definitely an issue. But so is someone hacking their play store account or Google play itself.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#636

Post by lrvick »

Aachen wrote: post #546
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

Signal will by design likely be more stable than Matrix in the short term because it is a centralized dictatorship.

China can move fast for this reason too.

You have to decide if the long term consequences of a fast moving dictatorship are worth giving up the freedom of a sometimes messy democracy.

The internet is too important to herd all our services into control of dictators, no matter how benevolent.

We survived the dialup days for all the UX hell of many providers without giving AOL exclusive control in spite of them having the best UX.

I hope we can do the same with something as critically important as worldwide internet communications, but the marketing of dictators and their ability to move quickly is sometimes too hard to resist until it all backfires spectacularly.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#638

Post by lrvick »

est31 wrote: post #635
lrvick wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification. It is one BGP attack or compromised CDN admin way from compromising the masses. This is one of the few points I agree with moxie on. The only safe way to install software on an Android device requires you bootstrap trust via a system supplied package manager that enforces si…

> bypasses signature verification. APKs do not bypass signature verification. Android still requires all apks to be signed, and only installs updates to apks that were signed by the same original key. As for BGP attacks, the apk is distributed using TLS, so it needs more than that. That being said, CDN hacks are definitely an issue. But so is someone hacking their play store account or Google play itself.

Semantics, but worth clarifying.

You have to turn on untrusted sources to sideload an APK. It will verify a signature. The problem is the OS has no anchor to know if that signature is by the key of the party you expect, or that of a malicious adversary. Once you pin the wrong key it is like getting a bad HTTPs cert on first connection. All bets are off moving forward.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#639

Post by AlfeG »

dmje wrote: post #448

Literally noone I know is on Telegram or Signal. Literally everyone is on WhatsApp. Pretty much noone I know cares about privacy, and they're all on Facebook anyway. It's gonna be really hard giving it up :-/

I'm on opposite side. Literally no one use whatsup, only Telegram or Viber

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#640

Post by omk »

yulaow wrote: post #630
castorp wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this mean that anybody agreeing to those terms needs to ask permission from each and everybody in their address book? And if they don't, can I sue them (at least in the EU) or ask my contact to be removed before the agree to the terms?

technically it is facebook in violation of GDPR considering that all the data in the addressbook is easily considered personal data for a commercial entity and so facebook should ask the permission to each owner of those numbers before collecting them.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-uplo...

Based on this they do not store information of users who have not signed up and only store a cryptographic hash. The hash isn't created on the device, so the servers definitely get it.

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