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USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

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Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#631

Post by gitrog »

aksss wrote: post #618
gitrog wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you're losing me. In what way does "culture" matter? Socioeconomic status has nothing to do with "culture".

Well as Devil’s advocate, look at how people in Japan reacted after Fukushima. The world was awed by how awesome their “community spirit” was - nobody denied they exhibited far more social cohesion, sacrifice and civic responsibility than would ever be on display in the US. That’s a cultural difference on display. Culture is not determined by race, so let’s not conflate the two. Culture is something you are immersed…

I agree with most of what you say. It's just that culture in the US isn't nearly as homogeneous as culture in Japan, and I have my doubts now as to whether the poster in question was talking about US as a whole or the culture (read race) of a specific demographic. Also, your examples here entirely sidestep the subject, which is crime and recidivism, things that are also found in Japan, probably lower than in the US but probably still higher than in Norway.

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#632

Post by baud147258 »

JAlexoid wrote: post #623
baud147258 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that still doesn't make what Assange did "investigative journalism", unlike what Bellingcat does

It does, so stop trying to be the "ultimate authority on what is investigative journalism"

and you are the one, to claim it was? Because nothing you wrote changed my mind on whether or not Assange did investigative journalism. Some journalists did use the documents that Assange released into the wild as a basis for their investigations, but that's not what Assange did

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#633

Post by monocasa »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #629
monocasa wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hes afforded almost no whistleblower protections since he was a contractor. https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2016/09/busting-myth-of-whistl... The espionage act under which he'd be charged doesn't allow a public good defense to be used in court. https://www.justiceinitiative.org/voices/why-snowden-won-t-g... What you're asking for structurally can't happen in the US legal system.

Well then you write a report and send it to Congress members as a sign of good faith. I just really don't like fleeing. Now that he fled he is fucked and looks guilty.

The congress members are part of the problem, as he's gone over. They approved the illegal problems and were looking to bury public mention once they figured out all the scope of the programs since they were implicated and didn't want blowback during their own elections.

You keep saying you "don't like fleeing", but you haven't provided an alternative that would both provide real change and not have him being threatened with the prospect of a firing squad.

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#634

Post by africanboy »

h_anna_h wrote: post #626
africanboy wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a (big) misunderstanding here. My opinion __is not__ that Assange should have refused to help Mannings, Assange is an adult, he can chose to do whatever he wants. What I'm saying is that Assange should have refused to be accessory to a crime. Journalists are protected when they receive classified informations, even if obtained illegaly, as long as the journalist didn’t do anything illegal He knew he w…

> My opinion __is not__ that Assange should have refused to help Mannings ... Assange should have refused to be accessory to a crime These two are literally the same thing.

Helping in committing a crime is different from helping.

Sorry if I insist on this, but helping != being accessory to a crime.

You can help in many ways, most of them are not crimes.

If I ask you to help me to set on fire the car of someone who harassed my girlfriend and you say "I can't" you are not refusing to help, you are refusing to commit a crime in order to help me. You might help in other ways like saying "please, don't do this".

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#635

Post by Hasnep »

aksss wrote: post #616
timkam wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find striking are the reported recidivism rates of Sweden and Norway: 43% vs. 20% after 2 years. Sure, Norway is richer and socially/ethnically more homogeneous, but can this be the whole explanation for this extreme difference, considering the two countries are otherwise very similar?

Well Norway is a fraction the size of the US in population. I would imagine that wealth, cultural homogeneity, and a very small population accounts for at least 80% of the explanation. So not the “whole” explanation, but the critical mass of why it works, sure. It’s questionable to assume that Norway’s system could scale up by a factor of even 3x, let alone something sixty times the size. I’d be interested if it coul…

Why not implement it at a state level then? Many states in the US have a similar population to Norway.

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#636

Post by timkam »

aksss wrote: post #616
timkam wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find striking are the reported recidivism rates of Sweden and Norway: 43% vs. 20% after 2 years. Sure, Norway is richer and socially/ethnically more homogeneous, but can this be the whole explanation for this extreme difference, considering the two countries are otherwise very similar?

Well Norway is a fraction the size of the US in population. I would imagine that wealth, cultural homogeneity, and a very small population accounts for at least 80% of the explanation. So not the “whole” explanation, but the critical mass of why it works, sure. It’s questionable to assume that Norway’s system could scale up by a factor of even 3x, let alone something sixty times the size. I’d be interested if it coul…

Sure, but my question is about the difference between Norway and Sweden. Sweden has (merely) twice the population size of Norway, is culturally similar, highly developed, has a similar political system etc, but still seems to fair far worse.

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#637

Post by NietTim »

Triv888 wrote: post #331
NietTim wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird, both load for me

I've read that it happens to a lot more people... not sure what the conditions need to be, but yes, it is really weird. It almost looks like some kind of censoring.

The assumption of censorship is unfounded

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#638

Post by jboog »

JAlexoid wrote: post #383
jboog wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assange literally encouraged people to infiltrate US intelligence agencies and "leak" classified intel. Let's not even get into his work laundering Russian hacked docs to damage the US, and then repeatedly lying about it. He also is credibly accused of being a rapist. The US has done some bad shit, no doubt, but that doesn't make Assange some saint. He's a bad dude.

CIA literally funded drug cartels. Obama literally authorized a drone strike on a "suspected terrorist US citizen" in Yemen. While the rape accusation was retracted. There's no equivalence of a proven fact vs accusation. Assange is unquestionably on a moral high ground here.

This is a straight-up lie. The accusations were never retracted. The women have maintained their allegations ever since.

and Not even going to respond to your whataboutism here, just lazy argumentation.

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#639

Post by jboog »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #329
jboog wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assange literally encouraged people to infiltrate US intelligence agencies and "leak" classified intel. Let's not even get into his work laundering Russian hacked docs to damage the US, and then repeatedly lying about it. He also is credibly accused of being a rapist. The US has done some bad shit, no doubt, but that doesn't make Assange some saint. He's a bad dude.

If I encourage people to leak Chinese classified documents, would that make me a bad dude too? I don’t think your reasoning is sound here.

If you raped two women, encouraged people to steal Chinese intel, and then worked with Russian intelligence to spread propaganda, yes, indeed you would be a bad dude.

Re: USA vs. Julian Assange Judgment

#640

Post by h_anna_h »

chillwaves wrote: post #630
h_anna_h wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why journalists should have some sort of special protection that should not apply to the "peasants".

seems like a function of their role in the 4th estate as the watchdogs of government. In practical terms, a journalist covering a protest should not be treated the same by security forces as a protestor. I am sure other, similar scenarios can be imagined.

I would say that they should, both the protestor and the journalists should be treated with respect. Even then though, a non-journalist that is not a protestor should be able to cover a protest just as well as professional journalists can.

> as the watchdogs of government.

More like dogs of the government. The ones willing to go against it in any meaningful manner are few and sidelined.

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