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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#631
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

Even at $1500/mo, this will cost at least $150B/mo. That’s almost additional $2T/yr. This is still not taking in to account free medical care and education. How do you think govt will pay for this? I think UBI is possible sometime in future when US GDP grows by another 50% and if somehow not all gains gets concentrated to top 1000 richest people which ironically UBI proponents like Dorsey, Altman etc are part of.

Remember that you get the money back. You're sitting there in the middle saying, $150B/mo? I don't want to have to pay that in taxes. I'd have to pay like $1500/mo more in taxes! But then you'd receive $1500/mo. It cancels out, so it doesn't matter.

You're really only making net transfers to the bottom half, and even most of those aren't for the entire amount. Someone at the 25th percentile gets $1500 but would be paying $750 in tax themselves.

Meanwhile it replaces what the people at the bottom were already getting in food/housing/other assistance. So it really "costs" almost nothing. It may even reduce costs, because now you don't need a wasteful means testing bureaucracy to process and determine eligibility for dozens of separate government benefits that no longer exist.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree - it should be Universal Basic Stuff (UBS). Particularly if housing is in a low cost of living area, then everything should get cheaper through automation. High End Manufactured housing [1], MOOCs, Telemedicine, Consumer Products will all get cheaper. Entrepreneurs in SV can create robots to automate the production of these things so even more UBS categories can be added. UBS assurances will avoid the…

who gets to live in more attractive areas? How different will it be from the current 'projects' living which subsidizes as well?

Nobody is advocating for the removal of free markets in the existing housing market. They are advocating for the increase in the supply through removal in the artificial scarcity created by bad policy.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#633
post #506
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

I think the idea here is that UBI replaces all of the other government welfare programs, no? What happens when someone spends all their UBI on whiskey or oxy and consumes it all and is then hungry? Should we keep food stamps around? Why can't we do that part (universal food stamps) by itself? I don't think the all-or-nothing approach of UBI makes a ton of sense. We can do things today like more free or subsidized foo…

If someone spends their UBI on drugs instead of food and literally starves as a result, they have done a service to society.

Foodstamps are already being traded for cash/drugs, all you are doing with UBI is removing the middle man.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens when someone spends all their UBI on whiskey or oxy and consumes it all and is then hungry? What's the difference between that and the current reality? Food stamps can be sold and bought on the black market in exchange for drugs and alcohol; people who want whiskey will be able to get it. Whatever money is spent on enforcing the "sanctity" of food stamps could just go to more people directly. And this…

If that’s the core argument for UBI i.e. it’s far more efficient, why do such proposed initiatives come with significant tax increases on the population? Your analysis should theoretically support a net decrease in spending on welfare (hence lower taxes) or best case, no additional increase. You would have a lot broader support if UBI wasn’t tied to egregious tax proposals like a wealth tax.

> why do such proposed initiatives come with significant tax increases on the population?

This depends on your definition of "population." If you consider billion dollar multinationals as part of the population, then yes, there are significant tax increases. You mention a wealth tax - first off, that's not a Yang policy, and I'm not aware of any prominent politicians pushing a wealth tax and UBI at the same time. However even if we consider Elizabeth Warren's wealth tax, that only kicks in once you start making over $50M / year, and there just aren't many people doing that. Is it really a significant increase if it only targets a few thousand people out of 330 million?

> Your analysis should theoretically support a net decrease in spending on welfare

Not exactly. It supports a net decrease in spending on welfare administration. Plenty of people, especially those leaning right-wing / libertarian / "small government", absolutely loathe the idea of useless government jobs, even though they would agree with purpose of the program (i.e. feeding the homeless, paying out unemployment, taking care of the elderly, etc.)

Even though spending would go up (although not really on the individual level, as AnthonyMouse points out), the political popularity of UBI would far surpass that of any individual social program, ensuring that it stays around for a long time and remains untampered. We are finding out how critical this is now, where states like New Jersey ended up having garbage unemployment programs due to ineffective management and states like Florida purposefully made applying for unemployment as difficult as possible to dissuade people from trying (to make their labor force numbers look better). The only social programs that have this "legendary" reputation among the public that protects them appear to be Social Security and Medicare: nobody can run and win on a platform aimed at destructing either. Destructing UBI would also be very difficult: people tend to get very angry when you promise to pay them, and then don't!

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#635
post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting questions, but I think GP used the shortened form of "negative income tax bracket".

No. A negative income tax is a well established principle. It can be implemented as a bracket, but it can also be implemented as a tax credit or in a fully progressive tax system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

So basically it's called a "negative income tax", but it's not actually implemented by multiplying income by a negative percentage.

In the model proposed by Milton Friedman, you start with an exemption amount, and a specific proportion of any unused exemption is refundable.

The first dollars you earn reduce your exemption, but at least they aren't taxed, until earnings equals the exemption amount, at which point you are getting no subsidy and your next earned dollar starts being taxed at the lowest rate.

The effective tax rate on those early dollars would be equal to the subsidy rate. For example, an exemption amount of $20k and a subsidy rate of 40% would mean earning nothing would grant you a $8k credit ($20k * 40%). Earn $10k and you would get a $4k credit ((20 - 10) * 40%). Earn $20k and you would get no credit and pay no taxes. But effectively your tax rate on the first $20k earned is 40% -- because you earned $20k and only netted $12k in additional income.

If instead you just give everyone $X, and just have the first dollar earned get taxed at whatever the lowest rate is, you don't have the same problem with regressive rates.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also just not a good idea. Social welfare programs act as single buyers/negotiators and can exploit economies of scale and collective bargaining to deliver reduced costs. Something that individuals can't do. Giving everyone their own money for, say healthcare costs, and having them navigate markets alone... achieves exactly the kind of divide-and-conquer that price-gouging pharmaceutical companies and hospitals…

Why would people making individual purchasing decisions tend to coincide with prices going down for essential goods like food and clothing, but not for healthcare?

Because the largest chunk of healthcare delivery expenditures is for chronic and severe or emergency procedures for which people have no ability to shop around for due to the time sensitivity of the issue, or because the complexity and presentation of their health issue is not understood enough to put any price on.

For example, you go into the hospital for abdominal pain, but it turns out that you need a massive orthopedic surgery to fix a congenital issue that only 2 surgeons in your area can perform (true story). Or you are a severe diabetes or lupus sufferer who has routine hospitalizations for a variety of infections you get at random due to their underlying condition. Need a tooth filling replaced? Of course, shop around. Need emergency dental surgery because you had traumatic facial impact playing soccer? Not so much. Emergency treatments to sick geriatric patients to extend their lives by weeks and months: also very expensive.

Routine doctor's office visits to remove a wart from your foot, or diagnose a sore throat, which you can shop around for, are not where the high costs comes from.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#637
post #506
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

I think the idea here is that UBI replaces all of the other government welfare programs, no? What happens when someone spends all their UBI on whiskey or oxy and consumes it all and is then hungry? Should we keep food stamps around? Why can't we do that part (universal food stamps) by itself? I don't think the all-or-nothing approach of UBI makes a ton of sense. We can do things today like more free or subsidized foo…

> I don't think the all-or-nothing approach of UBI makes a ton of sense. We can do things today like more free or subsidized food that would work exactly the same way as it would under UBI, with potentially more buy-in.

Who is suggesting that this is the final form and cannot be ammneded? If anything, I think Dorsey just did what should have been done with the first wave of the vast amount of Campaign funds the 'Yang Gang' raised and actually create a through analysis along with coherent and cogent overview on the means by which it would initially be deployed with all of its cost-risk benefit analysis.

At which point it could then be vetted and and scrutinized via public discourse and eventually be further refined after some changes or be deemed worth a first trial process. I dislike Democracy as a system of governance on just about every aspect, but perhaps this is one of the few usecases it may have as we transition to this model at scale and will require the participation of everyone for it to succeed?

But your position is like following the fallacy that software is 'done' once its beta has been released... that's just not how this works. And the maintenance of this deployment is just as important, or more so depending on its application, as the creation of its earliest iteration.

You're a Cryptocurrency/Bitcoin person, don't you think Aurora was worth it, even though it failed? It showed us what had utility and what seemed sound in a theoretical sense and accepted via convention only to have it be stress tested and fail in practice.

As for subsidizing food, even further no less, is to undermine not just how broken it is but also how one of the biggest reasons the Global Ag/Food Industry not only relies on a system that often yields a near destitute farmer, but is also ultimately built on an expendable and often mistreated and undervalued labor force.

Just look at how meat packer workers are deemed expendable during COVID but required to remain at work due to being an 'essential worker' and a critical link in the Supply Chain, the deaths be damned. We can always get another low skilled, desperate worker to replace them.

You must understand that peril exists for a farmer everyday, getting injured on the job is the norm, working with those (ever compounding) injuries is enshrined within their very culture and it seems near exploitative when properly viewed for what it is as bankruptcy and suicide are often the alternatives to not meet one's obligations in that Industry (see wide scale suicide in Indian Cotton farmers in the 2000s, and the displacement and disenfranchisement of small farmers in the US in the 80-90s caused by large Big Ag-tech, Drug companies and Massive Food consortia).

Food has value that far exceeds its current fiat denominated Market valuation, it is specifically because Governments all over the World subsidize it so heavily (in various ways) and in turn obfuscate the externalities of not just growing a crop but also getting it to Market that it can and often forces a farmer to operate at a net-loss. If you allowed for freer access of Markets that create a means for producers to exchange their products with chefs/restaurants directly as well as the end consumer you'd have a more functional Market based form of price discovery. I should know, I've been both.

So I can tell you right now from both a Biological/Ecology sense as well as a Farmer POV tomatoes will NEVER truly be a $0.99/lbs product if properly priced, they are extremely heavy feeders that will require large preps and amendments to the soil upon planting, and ideally crop rotation as well as lots of labor during and after harvest, but also materials to trellis, prune, the labor costs for pest prevention, weeding, storage, transport etc...

In short, less subsidies could actually create not just more accurate pricing (as food prices are at very skewed Historical lows) but potentially also a greater supply overall as the incentives for growers/producers have been created to profit from a newly created venture if they can deliver to Market a desirable product at a desirable price.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#638
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> probably has a lot to do with the low taxes and high amount of disposable income. A young lady I used to know was the kindest person I ever met. She didn't have much, but would donate a few dollars to every charity that called. They had her number, and called her all the time. She was the real deal, not one of those people who are only generous with someone else's money. > you are directly tying the value of the hu…

If "plenty of people" can be organized to consent to giving up money, maybe we can organize some kind of centralized method to collect funds and distribute resources to those in need. We can probably set up something through the government for this. Come to think of it, shipping food around is a lot harder than just giving money to them to go buy their own. Why don't we make it so the government hands out money to ev…

It's called the Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, United Way, Wounded Warriors, Shriner's Hospital, etc., etc. No government needed.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#639
post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> probably has a lot to do with the low taxes and high amount of disposable income. A young lady I used to know was the kindest person I ever met. She didn't have much, but would donate a few dollars to every charity that called. They had her number, and called her all the time. She was the real deal, not one of those people who are only generous with someone else's money. > you are directly tying the value of the hu…

"Plenty of people will voluntarily give food to a hungry person." Not enough, with the amount of hunger that's present in the richest country in the world.

I encourage you to give generously to your local food bank. You'll be doing the right thing.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#640
post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next time you see a surfer, give him part of your paycheck so he can play in the surf all day while you work to support him.

Can you answer the question directly? This glib response does nothing except, I guess, reveal your dislike of surfers (?).

If you follow my suggestion, you'll know the answer.

If you don't like surfers, think video gamers, artists, chillin' with the boys (as another poster mentioned), hanging out at the mall, going fishing, hanging out in front of the drugstore, watching TV, etc.

Now, I might make an exception if they were into drag racing :-)

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