Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#631

Post by ajeet_dhaliwal » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:19 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #490

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

> One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. I don't really see how this is so hard. Don't treat women poorly, in person or online. Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand, especially when those subjects (like rape and human trafficking) cause people intense pain. If you really do want to act this way, then you probably should exercise some self-censorship, and rethink your views, perhaps…

I don't really see how this is so hard. Don't treat women poorly, in person or online. Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand, especially when those subjects (like rape and human trafficking) cause people intense pain.

Morality is constantly changing and what is considered treating someone poorly changes too. More recently it appears to be changing faster than ever. That can make it hard to remain with the bounds of what is in the current instance of time considered socially acceptable by the majority. There is no absolute morality even though it may seem like it if you are thinking with the span of an hour or a day. Stretch it out and it's a constant shifting. In any case, I don't think anyone should be silenced. If they say something that the majority feels is foolish, they can be considered a fool, or a debate can be had to convince them of why they may be wrong, but to silence externally, or increasingly, self silencing with self censorship, in my opinion is dangerous as that means ideas cannot be discussed openly.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#632

Post by jigglesniggle » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #563

scoopertrooper wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy has a long history endorsing pedophillia. Is it so hard to not endorse pedophilla? Can't that just be the one thing everybody agrees on?

Do you have citing for this? Very easy to make a wide claim like this and go on a witch hunt. I don’t know the guy but that’s a big accusation.

There is a comment of his talking about "voluntary pedophilia." This is likely (very likely) a misuse of terms, though -- having had this discussion with others on the Internet, they do not usually intend pedophilia, which is an attraction to the prepubescent. Prepubescent children have no sex drive and their interest in sex is usually taken to be a sign of sexual abuse. Consequently it is hard to see voluntary pedophilia as something that can happen.

He probably means hebephilia (11-14) or ephebophilia (14-19). In some countries (Italy, Germany) or cultures the age of consent is as low as 14. Some are perhaps lower. The strict liability concerning statutory rape may also be different, which is likely what he wanted to bring into question.

There are currently people serving sentences for sexual crimes they "committed" after being lied to by their partner.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#633

Post by kstenerud » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

5trokerac3 wrote: post #578

kstenerud wrote: post #509

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

I'm normally 100% on board with condemning this Malthusian environment that has sprung up in the last couple years, but I don't believe that Richard Stallman is a complete victim in this scenario. He has a long history of using forums meant for technology discussion to promote borderline (and that's generous) social opinions, and of being openly hostile to people who don't tow his line. In this instance he ridiculous…

"His previous comments about minors on his personal blog, which I don't even want to dignify with a description (you can do your own search), leads me to wonder what other connections than money he had with Epstein."

Speculation, which would not be allowed in a court of law, is unfortunately a perfectly acceptable character assassination methodology.

And this kind of tar-and-feathering is precisely why we need official processes for this sort of thing. Official reprimands leading to termination if unfixed, like all civilized peoples do. This ensures that it's made crystal clear what's acceptable and what's not, with time to mend one's ways. The alternative is arbitrary terminations, which makes everyone insecure.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#634

Post by kelnos » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #603

kelnos wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please stop excusing bad behavior with some form of "oh because autism"? It's an insult to the many, many neuro-atypical people who don't say shitty, stupid things online, who don't act creepy around women, who don't have a sign on their MIT office that says "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)", who don't have a gross mattress in their office where they encourage people to lie topless, who don't try to pres…

I was mistaken.

The article you link does not at all say that:

> Gano also posted a photo of Stallman's office door, which has a sign on it reading: "Knight for Justice (Also hot ladies)."

Gano posted a photo of the sign, not the sign itself.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#635

Post by dfxm12 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #509

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

Who jumped straight to the punishment phase? What punishment was doled out? "Removed outright" from what? MIT?

RMS chose to step down himself. That was his decision. Even if you think MIT told him to, that would ultimately be MIT's decision, not the work of some "mob".

Furthermore, stepping down from MIT is not destruction you're playing it up as being. People have done similar (and of course, worse!) things and, after being the subject of some number of embarrassing articles on the web and some larger number of angry tweets, are currently living their lives with new jobs just fine. RMS doesn't need us to feel bad for him. He's still free & healthy.

If you're worried about kangaroo courts and injustice, there's plenty to focus on somewhere where people's lives and livelihoods are actually at stake, like the US-Mexico border or Hong Kong.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#636

Post by mnm1 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #627

mnm1 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ridiculous in a culture that elected and continues to support an accused rapist to its highest office. If the highest office in the nation (and many others) can have such a scumbag without him being forced to resign, how can we expect someone in Stallman's position to be perfect and PC with his speech so idiots don't misunderstand his direct style of speech? Such hypocrisy, such bullshit, this argument is.

This culture didn't elect him. The culture that created the Electoral College did. This culture voted overwhelmingly for the other option.

A nomination to one of the two major political parties says plenty enough about the culture that allows this while targeting people like Stallman who haven't actually hurt anyone for their unusual opinions.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#637

Post by dangerface » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

5trokerac3 wrote: post #578

kstenerud wrote: post #509

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

I'm normally 100% on board with condemning this Malthusian environment that has sprung up in the last couple years, but I don't believe that Richard Stallman is a complete victim in this scenario. He has a long history of using forums meant for technology discussion to promote borderline (and that's generous) social opinions, and of being openly hostile to people who don't tow his line. In this instance he ridiculous…

> who happened to donate almost a million dollars to him!

Is there any evidence of this? There is a big difference between the place he works at taking money and him taking money.

I don't think its right to hold an employee responsible for their employers actions.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#638

Post by efa » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #478

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

Can we please stop excusing bad behavior with some form of "oh because autism"? It's an insult to the many, many neuro-atypical people who don't say shitty, stupid things online, who don't act creepy around women, who don't have a sign on their MIT office that says "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)", who don't have a gross mattress in their office where they encourage people to lie topless, who don't try to pres…

My daughter who has autism constantly says things that could be considered offensive because she's not aware of sensitivities around race, gender, orientation, etc. It certainly can explain it for certain individuals. You can't say many neuro-atypical people don't say bad things so it can't be an excuse for him. "Neuro-atypical" is a huge, huge group of people who are very different.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#639

Post by 5trokerac3 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #633

5trokerac3 wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm normally 100% on board with condemning this Malthusian environment that has sprung up in the last couple years, but I don't believe that Richard Stallman is a complete victim in this scenario. He has a long history of using forums meant for technology discussion to promote borderline (and that's generous) social opinions, and of being openly hostile to people who don't tow his line. In this instance he ridiculous…

"His previous comments about minors on his personal blog, which I don't even want to dignify with a description (you can do your own search), leads me to wonder what other connections than money he had with Epstein." Speculation, which would not be allowed in a court of law, is unfortunately a perfectly acceptable character assassination methodology. And this kind of tar-and-feathering is precisely why we need offici…

> Speculation, which would not be allowed in a court of law, is unfortunately a perfectly acceptable character assassination methodology.

A dude openly defending pedos and CP, who happened to be paid from the coffers of the worst known child trafficker in history - who probably was a honeypot for getting blackmail material on famous and rich people - warrants a very large raising of the eyebrow. Stallman isn't some guy who happened to go to a single party hosted by Epstein. He worked for an org that took a ton of money from him and openly defended all the worst of Epstein's behavior. Anyone who would do that - even without the money - is wholly worth that type of scrutiny.

I'm so tired of people defending someone who has been an openly hostile individual for over 30 years. This went well beyond the spectrum or social awkwardness a long time ago.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#640

Post by kgwxd » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

magashna wrote: post #588

smackay wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a little cultural orientation, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter While redemption is one of the themes in the book sadly the internet has not quite developed that level of sophistication so we are stuck with denouncement/punishment.

These days you might as well become a hermit or kill yourself because there is no penance great enough to be accepted by some people.

You are forgetting who is President of the United States. The third choice is to go all-in.