I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…
"in other words : his technical brilliance, in my own opinion, was a far larger boon than the problems stemming from having to deal with his knife-like personality." One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole. It may take time, etc, but eventually, it ends up a significant net negative for the organization. The s…
Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
631–640 of 1001 posts
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#632Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a difference between blunt and abusive. Don't conflate them. "This code is wrong. We should not be doing things this way, and I'm rejecting the patch." vs. "You are a fucking retard for submitting this patch. Anyone who thinks like this should be retroactively aborted." The first style is blunt and to-the-point. The second is unnecessarily mean.
I agree with you but I think in the meetings coffeemug is describing, the first quote above would also be considered beyond the pale. You'd have to change it to something like, "I wonder if this patch could be improved somehow."
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#633Great. Everyone needs to work at being a nicer and better person, Linus perhaps a bit more than most. But equally important is everyone on the other side working to avoid being consumed by emotion, and learn to control their emotions better, when people and things in the world end up being mean or distressing. This doesn't happen so much with Linus anymore because everyone knows about him and the people most likely t…
But equally important is everyone on the other side working to avoid being consumed by emotion, and learn to control their emotions better You just described exactly what Linus needs to do. It's not any easier for Linus to always be nice He doesn't have to be nice . He just has to curb the sadistic and unnecessary meanness and maintain some minimal level of professionalism in his communication.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#634Earlier quoted context omitted.
Was there a public discussion that led to this change? The 'Contributor Covenant' contains this line: > Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting which is essentially a carte blanche for any actions based on 'violation of the code of conduct', especially with the inclusion of public spaces in it's scope. We've seen it being (ab)used many times recently in open-source p…
Every good thing must come to an end. Sounds like linux is going to go down this path and the industry and innovation will suffer as a result of this. They've been gunning for Linus for a long time. My guess is that they got some dirt on him.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#635Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…
Even your comment:
> I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality).
You are invoking that dichotomy by drawing that line.
Another person:
>Agreeableness in general is negatively correlated with career success.
(Hidden assumption that being "agreeable" means you're not getting the message across).
>I think it needs to be acknowledged that many people don't get subtle feedback. If you give me subtle feedback, either positive or negative, chances are I will miss it all together. I need feedback that is clear and obvious, what others could categorises as being blunt or abusive
Again: An implicit assumption that either the feedback has to be subtle, or it has to be abusive. Interesting conflation of "blunt" with "abuse".
There are a few others.
FWIW, in the last 2 years I decided to read multiple books on effective communication. Pretty much all of them, at some point, will explicitly call out this false dichotomy. The mindset many tend to have is that either you have to preserve a relationship and risk the message not getting across, or be harsh while risking the relationship. The books say that at the very outset, this mindset is one of the main reasons people are poor communicators. As long as one believes in this reality, he/she is dooming him/herself to having poor communication skills.
One of the books even gives it a name: The Fool's Choice.
Once you spend time studying it, and then start observing real effective communicators (at work and in other arenas), you'll find many of them practice the skills in the books, and you'll suddenly see why they are effective.
Changing your own style, though - it will take a lot of work. Expect change to be slow, and it may take years for you to get there.
Finally, one other comment straddled this Fool's Choice:
>but rather to separate the firmness on technical issues from politeness on personal description. That is, to say "this code is awful" while also a) going out of your way to praise the things co-workers/subordinates do well, and b) when it is appropriate to make general judgments on their performance, make it clear that they are appreciated.
Please don't do this. At least not as stated above. Everyone hates this. Some feel the positive statement is insincere, and planted just to soften the blow. At the other end of the spectrum, some take the positive to heart and the positive message actually lowers the severity of the negative in their minds. "Yeah I screwed up there, but it's probably not a big deal. Overall I'm still doing OK"
If you want to highlight the problem, go ahead and do it. "For me, your code is problematic because X, Y and Z". Explain why X, Y and Z are bad things. Where you go from there depends on what X, Y and Z are, but usually the next step is to try to identify concrete actions the person can take to prevent the problem from recurring (e.g. use a static analysis tool, or a linter, etc).
On the side, code reviews are challenging conversations, because there are very few objective facts. Almost all the (nontrivial) good practices in programming are opinions (including modularity and cohesion guidelines). Never pass an opinion off as a fact. At some level, the team should have coding guidelines/standards. If the team doesn't, then the employee using poor coding practices is not the problem.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#636Earlier quoted context omitted.
Modernism is Descartes` "I will find a single indisputable axiom and can prove everything knowable from there." His axiom? "Cogito ergo sum." Postmodernism is rooted in the notion that there is no indisputable base axiom from which we can build our understanding of the world. It's unprovable assumptions all the way down. The consequences for this, if you accept it (you don't have to, but you're going to have a hell o…
I think you are giving postmodernism too much credit. It's whole premise is a non problem. Looking back on it's history, it's a politically and religiously motivated ideology to push anti-enlightenment values that coated itself in esoteric language to avoid scrutiny. It's not a well thought out philosophy, because they reject the very thing that would allow that to happen, reason. Empiricism solved this issue. You wi…
Modernism is closer to being a parody of enlightenment values.
I mean do you really think that Descartes, who supposedly came up with most of his ideas while sick in bed and staring at a spider on his wall, would think it was a good idea for everyone to get their news from the Facebook news feed?
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#637Earlier quoted context omitted.
Was there a public discussion that led to this change? The 'Contributor Covenant' contains this line: > Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting which is essentially a carte blanche for any actions based on 'violation of the code of conduct', especially with the inclusion of public spaces in it's scope. We've seen it being (ab)used many times recently in open-source p…
Every good thing must come to an end. Sounds like linux is going to go down this path and the industry and innovation will suffer as a result of this. They've been gunning for Linus for a long time. My guess is that they got some dirt on him.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#638And yes, some of it might be "just" tooling. Maybe I can get an email filter in place...
Comes back a month later announcing a revolutionary new email service that ends up displacing every other email service and people start putting it on their resumes because almost every company starts using it and Microsoft integrates it into TFS.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#639Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…
I totally agree with this. I actually quit my job at Red Hat because of the culture of non-criticism. I kept getting in trouble for pushing back against stupid decisions, even though I never insulted a single person. For example: When the design team added 10MB of web fonts to the app, I said something like, "Users don't care whether the font is Open Sans or Arial. They care whether things load quickly and don't re-f…
If you truly can't put yourself in other's shoes and understand why they may feel that way, justly or not, I would strongly suggest counseling. I mean that with all sincerity.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#640Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Who has been lynched because of a Contributor Covenant, or other similar open-source code of conduct? The scope of the Contributor Covenant was widened in an attempt to l̶y̶n̶c̶h̶ harass and ban Elia Schito for an opinion he had expressed on his personal twitter[1]. Because Elia's twitter conversation wasn't connected with the project (beyond the project being listed in his bio), a new clause needed to be added to…
If I'm reading your summation correctly, someone made edited the CoC in an attempt to indict Schito ad-hoc, and that bad faith attempt was foiled because the community was able to see the timing of the change. Doesn't your version of events strongly imply that having the CoC on file is what made it even possible to see how transparent this attack was? Maybe you believe that the CoC is what made this attack possible,…
Regarding the CoC, I had spared you the details. Opal didn't have a CoC when this happened, they were pressured into Ada's by the outrage mob from twitter - told it would help prevent problems like this. Upon success at getting it adopted the group from twitter realized the CoC didn't have the clause they needed, so they added it. Opal was spared by customizing their CoC. The CoC everyone else got means twitterers have a codified excuse to shift their harassment to smearing the maintainer if they don't side with the mob in censuring a target of a pile-on.
My example isn't that an attempt to use the CoC in bad faith actually failed (do you really think Elia was unaffected?), it's that the attempt nakedly exposed how the whole purpose of the CoC had been bad faith. That was the revelation to me - CoCs had appeared so positive and community-minded before.
Anyway, I mistook your call-out for a question, so I realize the intent/history of the CoC wasn't of interest here.
> look at how you bring up the problem of "everybody else using the Contributor Covenant" that now includes the "Elia clause". Think about how absolutely absurd it would be if, in that argument, you replaced "Code of Conduct" with "[some library well-known to be broken/insecure]", and then used that line of reasoning to assert that open source software is "evil at its worst" or even, "kind of evil".
Lets leave evil and awkward analogies out of this. I meant literally the projects that adopted the Contributor Covenant now contain a clause that was written specifically to be bendable to to attack Elia. The clause isn't there to improve communities, it wasn't worded for that, it's in there to help facilitate attacks.