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Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

craigslist.org

631–640 of 654 posts

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved. I understand what you're saying. However, compare sex work to slavery (which it often is). Nobody wants to be a slave. Some desperate people might agree to be enslaved to pay off a debt. Yo…

By saying that a person can't voluntarily agree to become a slave, you are saying that you, not they, have the right to determine what happens to them. That is the essence of slavery right there. By taking away their choice you are claiming ownership over them. You haven't eliminated slavery at all; you've just assumed the role of slave-owner yourself "for their own good", much as other slave owners throughout histor…

> By saying that a person can't voluntarily agree to become a slave, you are saying that you, not they, have the right to determine what happens to them. That is the essence of slavery right there

I think you're being hyperbolic.

It is not possible for all people to have all freedoms. My freedom to go where I want is limited by your freedom to decide who comes on your property. Like it or not, we have to collectively draw boundaries that restrict some freedoms in order to preserve others.

Some of these tradeoffs are tricky. This one isn't. If large numbers of people start protesting their inability to become slaves, I'll reconsider. Meanwhile, large numbers of people are currently being forced into slavery - 20.9 million, by one estimate. https://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/slavery-today

Restricting the rights of some small number of hypothetical would-be slaves in order to protect the rights of large numbers of real people in forced bondage is clearly a worthwhile tradeoff.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#632
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I use your service to promote or facilitate the prostitution of another person? Asking for a friend.

zeronet isn't really that anonymous, you're looking for tor or i2p

You miss my point, which is that ZeroNet could fall under this idiot blanket law.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#633
This has nothing to do with governent laws. Like everything else its money. For instance missed connections i know a friend who found his father threw it. The real problem is craislist will have to employee people to police the site and that means paying money. This is what i think of this jew society the owner of craiglist and Zuckerburg that jew thief should such each others cocks. This is an end run to stop freedom of exspession. The oldest profession in the world good luck stopping it. Its like guns the horse is out of the barn good luck getting him or the guns that are out there back. This is what starts revolutions. I am not saying that there personal section was health but there are some lines the goverment should not cross.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By saying that a person can't voluntarily agree to become a slave, you are saying that you, not they, have the right to determine what happens to them. That is the essence of slavery right there. By taking away their choice you are claiming ownership over them. You haven't eliminated slavery at all; you've just assumed the role of slave-owner yourself "for their own good", much as other slave owners throughout histor…

> By saying that a person can't voluntarily agree to become a slave, you are saying that you, not they, have the right to determine what happens to them. That is the essence of slavery right there I think you're being hyperbolic. It is not possible for all people to have all freedoms. My freedom to go where I want is limited by your freedom to decide who comes on your property. Like it or not, we have to collectively…

> It is not possible for all people to have all freedoms. My freedom to go where I want is limited by your freedom to decide who comes on your property.

See, this is the sort of contradiction inherent in the "positive rights" worldview. Positive "rights" are always in conflict, which is very convenient when you're looking for an excuse to pick and choose which rights other people have and not very useful as a framework for a stable society.

Negative rights, on the other hand, never conflict; there is really only one fundamental right, which is self-ownership: the exclusive right to decide how yourself, and by extension your property, will be used. The only actions are out of bounds are those which would infringe on others' rights of self-ownership. From this you can infer other rights like the freedom of speech, freedom of association, the right to privacy, and the right not to be enslaved against your will, and together with others you can cooperate to provide each other with things which, while desirable, are not rights, such as food, shelter, defense, gainful employment, and healthcare.

> Meanwhile, large numbers of people are currently being forced into slavery - 20.9 million, by one estimate.

And I agree that this is wrong. The key difference is that these people were forced into slavery—it wasn't their choice. Obviously it's not a very attractive option under any circumstance, but one can easily imagine situations where the alternative might be worse. If you need what someone else can provide, and have nothing else of sufficient value to barter for it, giving up your freedom might be a price you'd be willing to pay. No one else should presume to take that option from you.

> Restricting the rights of some small number of hypothetical would-be slaves in order to protect the rights of large numbers of real people in forced bondage is clearly a worthwhile tradeoff.

Putting aside the fact that it isn't your right which you're trading away, and consequently that this isn't your decision to make, it doesn't actually protect anyone. A person who was coerced into such a situation could simply say so, forcing the other party to prove that they had agreed to it in exchange for some form of consideration.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are theft and murder so obvious? Obviously murder is among the greatest tragedies, but often it's a product of circumstance. Theft especially so

Really? A product of circumstance? How so?

A product of circumstance in the sense that murders and theft often occur in low income, low education areas. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it does shine a light in a place we can make drastic improvements.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We cannot launch our project too soon [details in profile]. We will do what we can to prevent trafficking: asking for ID and verifying they have an escorting presence is a good start. Analytics to look at payment flow and see if one entity is controlling multiple escorts is another.

Asking for ID and verifying they have an escorting presence, but what if they don't meet your bar? What will you do if you suspect someone is a victim of sex trafficking? Your business model is "extra judiciary" so ... what does that mean for the sex trafficking victims you will invariably come in contact with? How are you specifically planning to change an industry that exploits people?

If they do not meet our bar then they will not be able to join for now. Over time we will increase our methods to verify escorts.

If we feel someone is not operating under their own agency we will disable their account.

Will this fix everything? No. But it is an improvement over existing systems. And we are open to suggestions. If there is broad user/community consensus on how we should handle some scenarios then we can implement those ideas. The critical part of being extrajurisdictional is that we are not compelled to take a specific approach therefore allowing us ethics over legality.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, like the trade is going to suddenly end. All they've achieved is 'out of sight, out of mind.' I'm quite annoyed about this, both because it affects numerous friends of mine who are sex workers and are now scrambling to find alternatives to working on the street, where they're far less safe, and on a more pedestrian level because I met my wife on a Craigslist date years ago. Life is too short to make excuses fo…

It’s SJW collective punishment mentality. Because something can be used for terrorism, like cars, ban all cars.

That kind of mentality tends to come from reactionary conservatives in my experience.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#638
What I'd like to know of the voters who passed this renovated legislation is this. Was it a moral issue or unlawful issue that drove them, that is beyond the women's defamation groups, Christian Coalitions and pressure from the moral majority. Sex workers are most likely well connected though some may us CL or others to attract more buyers, most women interested in making money the old fashioned way really didn't need CL. This again is another knee jerk reaction to a festering problem and that is the people's appetite for sex. We have government stifling cigarettes sales, we had them stifle alcohol sales, they stifled tax free Internet purchases and now snoop your bank deposits in the name of preventing terrorists from laundering money. What a crock of shit. Now they have stifled an area of individual free speech and volition. Yes CL could have done a better job of monitoring personal ads, but so could states do a better job of monitoring used car sales. They simply ad "buyer beware" and that suffices. How can the government in clear conscience threaten to hold the Internet company responsible for what a person's intentions are without any real knowledge of it? That being the case then all sales sections will have to go under scrutiny as will rentals at least shared rentals. There's a ton of BS artists posting there with less than good intentions. Lastly, the entire thing would be more credible if the consenting parties had made public first the size of the problem in America. How many sex slave rings actually operate in the U.S. Second, how much incontrovertible proof is there they are using CL personals to accomplish their goals. This is the same type of legislation used to enforce driving over the limit rules. It was crafted under pressure from MADD and like organizations that don't care to drink and figured hey a few drunks are dangerous so we'll hang them all. Well intentioned legislation that is designed to impale a small section of society while it actually disrupts the masses is the proverbial pimple on the elephants ass. I guess next it's the massage parlors because there are tons of them and reading those inviting headlines one can only imagine something far greater than a relaxing massage.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#639
post #30

How are Craigslist personals more affected by this law/regulation than other semi-anonymous dating sites? Or am I mistaken in thinking that there is any dating site that has the same anonymity as Craigslist?

Hey I heard of a site called https://doublelist.com looks like everyone is headed there. Worked for me

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#640
post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is decriminalized, then victims don't have to live in fear of the police. Isn't this the same as with legalization? Legalization and regulation often makes things worse, not better. Do you have examples of this?

No, they aren't the same. Unfortunately, googling decriminalization vs legalization gets me articles that state the exact opposite of my understanding. As I understand it, decriminalization means making no law against it. Legalization means making laws about it that boil down to regulation. Thus, decriminalization is more free. This article seems to be generally in line with my understanding: http://time.com/3005687/…

The reason you get those google results is because your understanding is not consistent with how other people use the words. Your suggested usage is reasonable, but it's not the usage that is common, and I suggest that you change your understanding.

Legalization has always meant "making it legal", which in most societies means "removing laws that make it illegal" (though it might mean something different in North Korea, if you see what I mean).

Decriminalization is a wishy-washier idea, that includes lightening or removing criminal penalties, while potentially keeping other penalities. For example, changing indictable offenses to non-indictable offenses (in the U.S. that'd be roughly equivalent to changing felonies to misdemeanours).

Prostitution should be legalized, not merely have the penalties lightened. And that alone is not sufficient; legal regimes that legalize the actual act of sex-for-money, but still force most prostitutes to hide from the cops (I'm looking at Canadian law, here) are still inadequate, because such regimes still victimize sex workers (consensual or otherwise). It's simply a human rights issue.

I also think it's clear that some degree of regulation is desirable, but I think that reasonable people can disagree on this.

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