Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

blog.cloudflare.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

631–640 of 1001 posts

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#631

Post by ajuc »

illuminati1911 wrote: post #615
Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

> "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/"

Calling for persecution of literal inciting of violence is hardly a "extremist left" idea. In fact it's not even left-or-right issue.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#632

Post by MrsPeaches »

Can someone explain to me how the protection of free speech sits within the view of "the market will sort it out"? This seems like a very interesting case to take as an example.

In general this forum is pretty pro market but when a certain idea comes under attack from the market, people start talking about public goods. It seems like there are some contradictions here that feel under explored.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#633

Post by andrewflnr »

dogecoinbase wrote: post #424
andrewflnr wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slippery slope is not a fallacy. It's a real phenomenon in certain cases. It does, however, have to be proved relevant to any given question, which is GP's real offense.

Yes, this is why it's a fallacy. By the time you've justified a slippery slope argument, you have made an independent argument for your point that has nothing to do with the idea of a "slippery slope". Calling something a slippery slope without an additional complete argument is the slippery slope fallacy.

> ...you have made an independent argument for your point that has nothing to do with the idea of a "slippery slope".

Um, no, it probably does. Slippery slopes happen when there's unintended consequences embedded in the assumptions behind a proposition someone is putting forward, and there are people with an interest in pushing for them to be realized. Sometimes you talk about this in your argument; bam, slippery slope argument.

To try to name a "fallacy" after this rather useful concept, when the "fallacy" is just the boring case of failing to make an argument at all, is useless confusion at best.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#634

Post by aaron-lebo »

jrimbault wrote: post #622
illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

Anarchists and communists have long been banned from entering the US. And I've noticed a strong push back against most of the more mild socialists ideas. The US have not been "the land of the free" for a long time. And I will argue that communism is fundamentally a good ideology. While fascism has never leaned on the good side of human nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954 https://en.wik…

To be fair, anarchists didn't exactly make anyone their friends from the late 1800s forward. There was an incredible amount of political violence at the time.

Russia saw tens of millions murdered because the anarchists and communists (of that day) got exactly what they wanted in the overthrow of the old regime. It's weird how communism and fascism seem to appear out of the ether together and fight with each other.

How many states were destabilized by that combo in the last 100 years? Russia, Germany, Spain, at least, South American countries, etc. Fascists and communists are like pb & j.

There must have been a lot of normal people who just wanted to live normal lives but saw them destroyed by extremists who knew the right way to live.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#635

Post by abalone »

foxylad wrote: post #529
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

> It's an outrage that businesses that want to enjoy all the benefits of selling to the public can discriminate against members of that public for any spurious or bigoted reason they like. I have a problem with this, because in effect it is saying that if you want to be in business, you have to check your principles at the entrance. I do run a business, and I do reserve the right to withhold service from people whose…

"Public service" is an important distinction here that you're missing. There's a big difference between opening a shop and running a telecommunications business. While it would be totally appropriate for you to set the tone and messaging of your shop and even discriminate among customers, I submit it would not be good for our society if telecom companies banned customers based on their legal speech. You wouldn't want that, because while it would be great if it only targeted racists and Nazis, what if it didn't? This is basic public communication infrastructure, just like the public streets that link up private shops.

The principle that applies is a basic Enlightenment one: everyone has the right to speak. You don't have to agree. You can not visit their shop. You can protest outside their shop. But you don't get to barricade their shop and cut its wires.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#636

Post by seikilos »

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

> Nazis are no different.

Be careful of this. There are very few actual national socialists in the United States, and they certainly aren't all part of a single organisation like Al Qaeda.

Even among them the majority are probably against genocide since they all deny the holocaust.

What you say does however apply to The Daily Stormer. So I agree that they're a threat and should have been taken down years ago.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#637

Post by matt4077 »

6nf wrote: post #572
matt4077 wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that intentionally driving your car into a group of peaceful pedestrians and killing someone, for political reasons, isn't terrorism?

ok maybe it is terrorism. But why is ISIS allowed on cloud front?

Arguably they shouldn't. But just because both X and Y should be done, it's not wrong to do only X, or only Y.

I can also sorta understand how the groups in question create a strong(er) emotional reaction. These are hate groups from "our" society. And in the same way that the death of someone close saddens more than a stranger's, seeing a swastika-bearing mob of people who could have gone to school with you may stir more anger than the hate and atrocities committed by strangers–especially if you don't understand their language, and have gotten used to it.

If we interpret Cloudflare's action as a symbol, it may also be more effective when used in this case than with ISIS: coming from (in general terms) the same society, such a signal of disapproval is more meaningful. People are social animals, and they are hardwired to seek approval from their peers. No matter how much someone tries to convince themselves that they don't care, it stings when their neighbour stops inviting them to his parties.

The same isn't true for ISIS, to whom the people at Cloudflare would have always been "the other side".

Plus, obviously, the fact that stormtrooper monthly apparently said that Cloudflare were sympathisers. That statement made it impossible to continue working for them.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#638

Post by Akujin »

contrast wrote: post #621
fennecfoxen wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They won't politely tolerate you. Deviants will be chastised, expelled/expatriated, jailed, or killed. If they have the power to? Yeah, in a heartbeat. But they're not the only ones, or the most powerful ones, just the most ostentatiously intolerant. > 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. If b…

A white supremacist killed someone at the weekend for protesting. If their free speech gives you supreme confidence , then you are simply wrong. The evidence is fresh. You will have free speech - as long as you only go to the right places, say the right things, wear the right clothes, have the right colour skin. Over time, supremacist movements reduce that free space in greater and greater amounts. This is what the e…

And this is why in Germany you can't protest with any guns, military swat gear, masks, or other weapons. Doing so is illegal because a large group of people with weapons can intimidate another group into not being able to exercise their free speech.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#639

Post by briandear »

emodendroket wrote: post #258
adventured wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it incredible that so many people here do not realize what inventing and enforcing a new, arbitrary hate speech category will enable politically over time. While simultaneously they're terrified of Trump, they're extremely eager to intentionally give him extraordinary new powers of speech control. Or is the plan to only give those speech control powers to politicians & authorities one agrees with? It's like al…

In fact private corporations already have the right to censor or refuse service to any of their customers.

Unless you bake cakes.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#640

Post by lsd5you »

matttproud wrote: post #591
Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

I always wondered why we didn't see the term crypto-fascism come up more in the last few years. Perhaps because it is too honest and gives room for manoeuvre (although equally it is going to be hard to disprove). Hence people shouting 'Nazi' - which reminds me of kids calling the cops in the UK 'The Feds' - both of which sound idiotic. We had the terms we needed (Neo-Nazi and Crypto-Fascist) and they both meant something.

I would say we also need to introduce a counterpart. e.g. crypto-stalinist or crypto-communist. As it is an equally plausible accusation to make that some people with hidden beliefs on that side of the spectrum could take them to those dark places.

Post reply on HN