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Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

nytimes.com

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Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#621

Post by maxerickson »

sneak wrote: post #554
solid_fuel wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be fun to fantasize about these things some times, but there is no technical solution to tyranny. Laws are not like code, intent matters. Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged - it doesn't matter if you jump through hoops to avoid this specific instance.

This is false. If you can image and wipe your phone on the plane before landing, and write those random bytes to a usb stick, the usb stick will appear blank, because encrypted data is noise. You land with a factory blank phone. You clear customs and get where you are going and restore your phone. Substitute cloud storage for a USB stick if you do it at your departure hotel. There are absolutely technical solutions t…

How do you solve it when they beat you for having a phone that doesn't look like they want?

Like whatever arbitrary thing they decide it should look like that day.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#622

Post by jdlshore »

bengt wrote: post #224
jdlshore wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alleged crime is knowingly interfering with a lawful search (by providing a duress password that deleted the phone). Location has nothing to do with it.

The location is the crux of the "lawful" part of the search.

Are you a lawyer? I’m not, but the Legal Eagle video linked elsewhere in this thread says that the reasons for the search are the crux of the “lawful” part, not the location.

(The location was at the port of entry—the border—which is pretty much the definition of the CBP’s jurisdiction.)

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#623

Post by klardotsh »

hylaride wrote: post #146
tavavex wrote: post #97

I'm not a legal expert, but all this seems to check out with US law. Americans need to remember that some of their constitutional rights don't really apply at ports of entry by design. This inconvenient truth for the land of the free has existed for a long time, this situation is just drawing attention to it. Their powers are far-reaching.

Fun fact, there is a long standing exemption to the unreasonable search and seizure protection laws if you're out on a boat (it may only be on the open ocean and Great Lakes, though IANAL). One of the earliest Supreme Court rulings essentially said that without it, it would be impossible for the US to enforce tariffs, which were the main source of revenue at the time. Anybody who boats often enough has been boarded b…

Any “navigable waters” fall under this jurisdiction which at a minimum includes all salt water and the Great Lakes, plus a few other odds and ends rivers and so forth. Indeed, almost all state and landside federal law goes out the window on a boat - a frequently bumped into example by boaters here in Washington is getting a civil penalty flavored reminder from USCG that cannabis is still (for whatever reasons) federally an illegal substance, and having it on a boat at all is an offense (with larger amounts or future violations escalating as far as seizure of the vessel).

Marine laws are nuts.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#624

Post by shimman »

az226 wrote: post #540
gblargg wrote: post #532

The decoy passcode feature should boot into a separate partition that looks like a normal phone setup, and during that time quietly erase the user's actual data. They would never have known if it worked like this.

Probably, but it will be more valuable for society for him to be tried and found not guilty, setting a legal precedent.

That's not going to stop authoritarians from harassing. Want an example of how this played out?

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) was the SCOTUS case that declared if you were born in the US you were a citizen. You think Mr. Ark was okay from harassment after this case was ruled in his favor? Less than 3 years later he would be held in Texas while local authorities tried to deport him under the Chinese Exclusion Act ignoring his previous ruling (that was national news, and they'd be fully aware of).

Then after winning his freedom, that he was already granted, he was arrested again in SF where they tried to deport him as well. Then after getting released, for something that he has already proven twice now, he went back to China and never returned to the US.

Institutions do not stop authoritarians.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#625

Post by Loughla »

doh wrote: post #591
gblargg wrote: post #532

The decoy passcode feature should boot into a separate partition that looks like a normal phone setup, and during that time quietly erase the user's actual data. They would never have known if it worked like this.

100% I have built similar behavior in my [0] encrypted storage app for iOS. User creates a "duress vault" which is an ordinary vault that user can store any data they want (usually something very inconspicuous). If this vault is opened, it will wipe out all the other vaults silently without actually showing any sign of doing so and still preserving the duress vault's data. Even if snapshot of files is made, the index…

What do you do that you need something like that?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#626

Post by Loughla »

stopIiiiit wrote: post #587
gblargg wrote: post #532

The decoy passcode feature should boot into a separate partition that looks like a normal phone setup, and during that time quietly erase the user's actual data. They would never have known if it worked like this.

[flagged]

While I agree with your sentiment, I have to imagine that the decision makers are still older and more out of touch?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#627

Post by frollogaston »

zuzululu wrote: post #578
nik282000 wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, if he was innocent he would have nothing to hide. Would you care to post screenshots of your inboxes and browser history for the class?

99% of ppl would not hesitate than risk detainment > Would you care to post screenshots of your inboxes and browser history for the class? i would be since i dont have anything to hide, do you have anything to hide or find embarassing ? I don't maybe my credit score, a few porn sites and password resets to some dating sites. I don't really care if authorities see it because there's nothing remotely illegal involved.…

99% of people also have an email service that will turn over your entire inbox if required by law.

Don't think GrapheneOS suggests guilt, seeing how they're tracking everyone without a warrant and going after people for things that are very defensible under 1A. Also some people don't want to be subject to Googliness, that's fair. But duress code on top of that... I know the govt can't treat that as guilt, but I personally find it sus.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#628

Post by doh »

Loughla wrote: post #625
doh wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% I have built similar behavior in my [0] encrypted storage app for iOS. User creates a "duress vault" which is an ordinary vault that user can store any data they want (usually something very inconspicuous). If this vault is opened, it will wipe out all the other vaults silently without actually showing any sign of doing so and still preserving the duress vault's data. Even if snapshot of files is made, the index…

What do you do that you need something like that?

Me personally? Nothing.

I added it after users asked me to solve their problem of being strip searched like this.

I know some people keep crypto wallet keys in the vaults. Someone else wrote me that they carry sensitive documents they don’t want to be exposed.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#629

Post by reenorap »

twothreeone wrote: post #152
IncreasePosts wrote: post #142

What I don't understand is if he just didn't give any password, he would have been fine. It's only because he gave him a duress pin that he's in trouble. So, in both cases the government wouldn't have access to the contents of the phone

In the first case they (the US govmnt) could hold him (the citizen) in contempt (in a cell) indefinitely.

That’s false. Maybe a few hours but that’s it. The CBP are expressly not allowed to deny citizens entry into the US.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#630

Post by tptacek »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #608
thomasjeff1 wrote: post #117

Why American authorities are always attacking their citizens freedom?

Law enforcement are underpaid, overworked, and they aren't even respected anymore. A lot are fine, but a lot of people are ending up there because they can't get any other job [1]. I don't think these attacks on freedom are always malicious, I think a lot of it is people in law enforcement who aren't capable of understanding the not-so-subtle difference between "law enforcement" and "law authority". [1] - See stories…

So far as I can tell --- and someone challenged me on this recently, saying they'd been in court over a case related to it, so take this with a small grain of salt --- this "too high IQ" thing happened once, in New London CT, and if that's really the only documented case you have to wonder whether it wasn't just New London making an excuse for why they didn't hire someone they just didn't like the vibes of. I can say with assurance that there's no "IQ cap" in cop hiring around here; there's a standardized assessment, and there's no score cap on it.

I wince at the disrespect shown to the profession on message board threads (in part because it feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy, and in part because it's so clear that the people expressing that disrespect would be less happy if they couldn't make these arguments --- i.e., they want policing to be bad), but normal people love police. Our resident beat officer showed up at our block parties and was a minor celebrity.

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