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Waymo in Dallas

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Re: Waymo in Dallas

#621

Post by Zigurd »

weatherlite wrote: post #472
ultimoo wrote: post #275

I was talking with someone visiting from Florida the other day and they were talking about how Waymo is slurping money that would have otherwise stayed in the local economy. E.g. you pay an uber driver, the uber driver pays the grocery store, etc. This is something that had never occurred to me since I love taking Waymos here in the bay area. I guess Waymos operating in Florida need local labor to maintain and clean…

For sure , this is gonna kill driver jobs and/or lower their wages due to the increased competition. The upside is cheaper mobility for everyone - in general tech like this should have a deflationary effect (We're still not seeing this enough). Think robots building an entire city in months/couple of years instead of a decade, that would cheapen housing dramatically. We're obviously not there yet.

There are a couple of other important factors: one is safety. Waymos observe traffic laws and safety rules. With enough Waymo on the road, everyone else will be forced to obey speed limits. As a cyclist, I welcomed the day when Waymo waits to pass me rather than a human driver who will get impatient and do a close pass.

The reason I say Waymo specifically is that I don't think it's well appreciated the tech advantage Waymo has by using Google's unequalled geospatial data. Elon keeps claiming that Teslas will do the same thing much cheaper and everywhere, but there's no actual evidence that that is possible. Grinding out larger and larger service areas in more cities is likely to be the way automated rides expand for the next several years.

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#622

Post by weatherlite »

Aboutplants wrote: post #550
ragazzina wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The upside is cheaper mobility for everyone Why should Google leave money on the table? They will raise the price until it's just below what people are already paying.

If robot driven cars are more expensive than human driven cars then the solution presents itself.

You are right, the clear solution is to eliminate all human drivers.

- ChatGPT

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#623

Post by vel0city »

Grombobulous wrote: post #585
infecto wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have to say “with respect” don’t say it at all. You can share your ideas without calling names. A bus would simply never work. Busses, trains and other modes of group transport or hard or near impossible to get right in a sprawling suburban metro. It would be amazing if it was possible but folks are going to work in so many directions (there is not a single workplace hub) and after work they may be going to an…

Then why does public transit work in other countries with suburbs? Obligatory repost of this video about small towns and cities in the Netherlands being easily accessible by public transit and cycling: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ztpcWUqVpIg I will also point out that a large proportion of suburbs in the US are comparatively brand new developments. While we might not be able to retrofit existing developments, fast-gr…

> This is entirely because of the design of Haarlem and its pedestranized city-center

Practically all of those towns have had a focus of building walkable/bikeable spaces with dense mini-downtown areas for at least decades if not longer.

Its not impossible for this to eventually happen to these already built US suburbs, but a lot of these places were explicitly designed around everyone coming and going by car. A lot of these suburbs weren't even planned with the idea of pedestrians ever leaving the neighborhood. They'll have few actual entrances and exits, with those rarely connected to any kind of infrastructure outside other than busy roads.

> fast-growing suburban locations like those in Texas can change course right now and decide to build in a way that’s transit-oriented

A lot of those fast-growing areas are in cities with zero transit and often don't even neighbor a city with any real transit. Look at places like Princeton, Celina, Melissa, Anna, etc. They border towns like Frisco, McKinney, Prosper, and more which also aren't connected to DART. All of these towns actively shun public transit. A lot of home buyers in these areas just don't care about transit access at all, with many actively opposed to transit. So what, maybe Princeton does decide to make some transit. Ok, where do I go with that? From one suburban house to another without a car? A bit easier time getting to Little Ceasars, Taco Bell, and Walmart? Its entirely disconnected from practically any other place the people there actually need to go, because its not like many people actually work in Princeton or Celina.

So it'll take a lot of additional development and rethinking of what these places are and how they ultimately function for transit to actually make sense there.

I'm not saying public transit and walkability/bikeability can't possibly happen in North Texas. I like biking around, I ride DART when it makes sense, and I do push for expansion of bike infrastructure and good DART access. But I also see the heat index for today is 105F, it'll be about 110F on Friday. I don't think I'll be riding a bike to get the groceries. I don't think the Netherlands often gets weeks where the heat index is >100F practically every day. And finally, it will take changing a lot of minds about public transit to get buy-in from a lot of the population to actually do it.

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#624

Post by DeathArrow »

Teever wrote: post #513
missedthecue wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a municipal finance perspective, most Dallas-Fort Worth suburban municipalities are far and away outperforming urban Dallas (the City of Dallas proper). That's not opinion, you can see the finances as they are all public. Ask the LLM of your choice to make research easy. I'm not really sure where people get this idea that suburbs are drowning in liabilities where dense american urban centers are overflowing with…

I think you're sort of missing my point. After decades of ignored negative externalities from unchecked suburban growth and car-culture are coming to an end. As populations decline and temperatures increase places like Dallas and the wealthy suburbs around it that you mention will have less and less relevance. There isn't going to be a future where the citizens of suburban Dallas are enjoying Starbucks coffee in sing…

What about the problems negative externalities from unchecked crowding and bus culture? Like overcrowding, sky high prices for housing, very high prices for everything, broken infrastructure that is to expensive to fix and over capacity?

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#625

Post by infecto »

Grombobulous wrote: post #618
infecto wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transit going to where. That’s the problem, you could build a new development that is transit oriented but where is it going? The average person in Texas does not want to transfer busses. Your comparison to Netherlands is rough because you are talking about a country that has a fairly mild climate and older cities that generally have density and not much sprawl. I don’t comprehend these examples. Also those cities ar…

I guess I should have expected these talking points to come back after posting a comment like that and I should have headed them off at the pass. If the Netherlands is the size of the Dallas metro area, then why isn't the Dallas metro area like the Netherlands? Dallas-Fort Worth has over 8 million people in it, it's not like it's a drastically smaller population than the Netherlands. This argument of "America has a b…

I don’t think you touched any of the critical issues. You’re also incredibly rude for no reason.

- Dallas is much much hotter than the Netherlands.

- Overall Netherlands population density (including rural areas) is higher than DFW metro.

- For most of the cities in the YouTube video shared they are a few miles by a few miles. The length of a typical Dallas frontage road. It makes sense to walk and bike in those small hamlets.

Going back to density, you are right the Netherlands moved back from a car centric life but that did not change population density before or after. Most cities in the Netherlands are a multiple of DFW so you have this tough argument. What works in the Netherlands is not necessarily a solution for DFW. You would need to rebuild the city to be denser, have more businesses located together and then build out transit while ignoring that it’s too hot for a good portion of the year to ride a bike or walk around outside.

My back of napkin math ended up with 30k sq ft per person in DFW compared to 20k sq ft per person in all of the Netherlands.

I think Waymo is a great step in the right direction.

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#626

Post by Grombobulous »

vel0city wrote: post #623
Grombobulous wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why does public transit work in other countries with suburbs? Obligatory repost of this video about small towns and cities in the Netherlands being easily accessible by public transit and cycling: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ztpcWUqVpIg I will also point out that a large proportion of suburbs in the US are comparatively brand new developments. While we might not be able to retrofit existing developments, fast-gr…

> This is entirely because of the design of Haarlem and its pedestranized city-center Practically all of those towns have had a focus of building walkable/bikeable spaces with dense mini-downtown areas for at least decades if not longer. Its not impossible for this to eventually happen to these already built US suburbs, but a lot of these places were explicitly designed around everyone coming and going by car. A lot…

Hot weather transit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SJ1NBMrH0

Cold weather transit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKvtnToQyi0

Transit is small towns and suburbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztpcWUqVpIg

I would remind all of us that our built environment is not an inevitability, it is a continuous choice, especially in a rapidly expanding state like Texas. In 1960, 8 million fewer people lived in the Netherlands, and cars definitely existed and were mainstream back then. This idea that the Netherlands is special and this magical thing they've done can't be done anywhere else is a weak one in my mind.

It's never too late to change course. It's not a black and white choice where we must suddenly give up our vehicles and never drive, it's more like a gradual increase in the number of trips that are feasible and enjoyable without a car.

I know people who lived in Cleveland who started using the bus to get to work when the HealthLine BRT line was completed. They still drive basically everywhere else, but that one bus line changed their daily habits dramatically.

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#627

Post by coldpie »

panick21_ wrote: post #610
cortesoft wrote: post #60

I live very close to LAX, and we have hundreds of Waymos in our area. At first i was a little weary, and kinda weirded out by all of them. They have become completely normal, and cause WAY fewer traffic incidents than human drivers. They are very predictable, and will always let you pull in front of them when changing lanes (unlike a lot of other LA drivers). I have seen a few incidents where they seem 'stuck', and i…

If you live in car sewer then slightly better shit is considered acceptable. I prefer not to live like that.

As a public transit using American who does not live in NYC, I do live in a car sewer, so I will happily accept this significantly better shit while still also advocating for increased density, traffic calming measures, and better public transit. I'd much rather see a Waymo coming down the street while I'm crossing to catch the bus than a human driver.

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#628

Post by infecto »

vel0city wrote: post #623
Grombobulous wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why does public transit work in other countries with suburbs? Obligatory repost of this video about small towns and cities in the Netherlands being easily accessible by public transit and cycling: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ztpcWUqVpIg I will also point out that a large proportion of suburbs in the US are comparatively brand new developments. While we might not be able to retrofit existing developments, fast-gr…

> This is entirely because of the design of Haarlem and its pedestranized city-center Practically all of those towns have had a focus of building walkable/bikeable spaces with dense mini-downtown areas for at least decades if not longer. Its not impossible for this to eventually happen to these already built US suburbs, but a lot of these places were explicitly designed around everyone coming and going by car. A lot…

I share all of your views. I think there is opportunity in some of the new developments to have some more amenities built in which I have seen some doing, community spaces, light retail, more schools baked in but I don’t see how you solve the density problem or how diverse work locations are.

I have never lived in Amsterdam but my obeservatiob is that these are older cities already baked in with density. So it’s much easier to switch back to bicycle and share infrastructure.

You can build a new city in Texas with transit in mind but people are still going to be commuting 30mins or more in every direction.

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#629

Post by infecto »

Grombobulous wrote: post #626
vel0city wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is entirely because of the design of Haarlem and its pedestranized city-center Practically all of those towns have had a focus of building walkable/bikeable spaces with dense mini-downtown areas for at least decades if not longer. Its not impossible for this to eventually happen to these already built US suburbs, but a lot of these places were explicitly designed around everyone coming and going by car. A lot…

Hot weather transit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SJ1NBMrH0 Cold weather transit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKvtnToQyi0 Transit is small towns and suburbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztpcWUqVpIg I would remind all of us that our built environment is not an inevitability, it is a continuous choice, especially in a rapidly expanding state like Texas. In 1960, 8 million fewer people lived in the Netherla…

You keep drawing on this random anecdotes. Singapore is nothing like DFW. The best solution is progress that people will use. People are not going to walk around in the hot Texas sun across miles of frontage roads and nobody is going to rebuild the city to look like Singapore.

Re: Waymo in Dallas

#630

Post by cucumber3732842 »

irowe wrote: post #580
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (and indeed most of America) Cookie cutter developments where each street is a culdesac or horseshoe with it's own HOA is the only economically sane way to any serious volume of detached single or multi unit detached housing development thanks to federal environmental regulation. Who screeches bloody murder at even the mere hint of making some adjustments there? Why nearly the same people who complain about the cur…

Can you explain how environmental regulations induce that housing style? I struggle to see the connection

Basically every rule that tries to piecemeal outlaw the concrete jungle (muh setbacks, muh maximum impermeable area percentage, and so on) winds up introducing sprawl because you wind up wasting site plan space on whatever it is in your context.
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