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Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

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Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

Not sure if his status as sex offender is relevant in this discussion but it’s funny to see the stereotype in action.

>to see the stereotype in action.

Which stereotype, the "leftists are child groomers" one? He's clearly a left-wing commenter...

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get it: the case winning/losing is irrelevant to the argument being made.

If the actual final outcome doesn't matter, maybe your argument sucks.

Or maybe you're incapable of understanding why it doesn't matter.

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Members of American Indian tribes were born in the United States after the 14th amendment was passed but it took an act of Congress to make them citizens. The question of jurisdiction is a very real one that isn’t nearly as cut and dry as you’re implying it to be.

You're trying to impute complexity to a thing in order to achieve a goal that is not achievable. The 1866 Congress that debated the amendment understood and intended that Indian tribal nations would not be covered by the clause because they were separate nations not under the jurisdiction of US law . Here's an example of the debate [1] where they discuss it. Far from making your point, examples like this make it obvi…

An additional section from the page provided that I found odd:

[Mr. Cowan] (Sen from PA)

"So far as the courts and the administration of the laws are concerned, I have supposed that every human being within their jurisdiction was in one sense of the word a citizen, that is, a person entitled to protection; but in so far as the right to hold property, particularity the right to acquire title to real estate, was concerned, that was a subject entirely within the control of the States.

It has been so considered in the state of Pennsylvania; and aliens and those who acknowledge no other allegiance, either to the State, or to the General Government, may be limited and circumscribed in that manner.

I have supposed, further, that it was essential to the existence of society itself, and particularly essential to the existence of a free State, that it should have the power, not only of declaring who should exercise political power within its boundaries, but that if it were overrun by another and a different race, it would have the right to absolutely expel them."

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hint: If someone says "yeah sure manpads are fine" they're not some fox news boomer who adores Reagan.

It's still very much a phenomenon. Look how the NRA and GOP handled the Philando Castile case ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Philando_Castile ), for example. Suspicious silence, for the most part.

The ‘right’ is a venn diagram, not a solid block.

The NRA has a lot of overlap, but Reagan was never particularly pro-gun - he was literally a California Actor, and it was under him that most federal gun laws were passed. (1984 GCA being huge)

In many ways, he was just really good at pretending to be/pushing folks on the rights buttons, while being a smokescreen for all the other laws that people needed to pass. In that way, a lot like Trump is right now.

Notably, Reagan also had dimentia/Alzheimer’s through a large portion of his terms, not that it is related to our current situation at all…

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#625
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn’t an epidemic of any other gun crime, by the numbers.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/10/31/1209683... > The U.S. has the 28th-highest rate of deaths from gun violence in the world: 4.31 deaths per 100,000 people in 2021. That was more than seven times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.57 deaths per 100,000 people — and about 340 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.013 deaths per 100,000. https://everytownresearch.org/graph/the-u…

We were talking specific models, yes?

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#626
post #590

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Well, I do agree that the redistribution system is absolutely broken. Most welfare recipients do in fact work (and benefit others) but our capitalist redistribution system has decided that they don't deserve to live with dignity, leaving the centrally planned redistribution system to pick up the slack.

The fallacy here is you're trying to frame things in terms of "deserving." An African child deserves life and wealth as much as an American one. A guy slaving 16 hours a day ripping shingles off of roofs "deserves" a mansion and high-dollar escorts as much as the playboy heir of some mega-corp. Some starving African child probably deserves to rip the computer/tablet/phone you're writing this with out of your hand and…

You're fixating on the word deserve in my post, but that's got nothing to do with my point. I'm saying that the market has decided that it doesn't have to pay a living wage since the government picks up the bill to keep things going. I think that's perverse.

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#627
post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/10/31/1209683... > The U.S. has the 28th-highest rate of deaths from gun violence in the world: 4.31 deaths per 100,000 people in 2021. That was more than seven times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.57 deaths per 100,000 people — and about 340 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.013 deaths per 100,000. https://everytownresearch.org/graph/the-u…

We were talking specific models, yes?

You said "any other gun crime", so no?

How much do you think of this disparity is due to Gatling guns?

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." They are not born/naturalized in the United States, but one of its territories. "Subject to the jurisdiction" is satisfied, but the other part is not. (We can grant citizenship to territories by statute, like Puerto Rico, but the Constitution does not…

>They are not born/naturalized in the United States They are clearly born in the United States , the territories are part of the United States. The United States is the sovereign state of American Samoa. The point you're making is exactly the point I was making. We define by statue and court precedent which territories are magically included in this. American Samoa was included and considered in the United States and…

Downes v. Bidwell (1901) created a difference between 'incorporated territory' and 'unincorporated territory'

The Second Organic Act of 1912 explicitly extends the constitution (and the 14th amendment) to the Alaksa territory. Supreme court cases have established that the 14th amendment doesn't apply to unincorporated territories.

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've laughed ever since United States v. Jones (2012), the GPS tracker-stuck-to-vehicle case. The justices actively debated what the historical equivalent of 24/7 digital tracking would look like in 1791. This prompted the famous hypothetical of an officer secretly squeezing into the trunk of a horse-drawn carriage to track someone's movements over several days. The issue here is that there's no practical way to ever…

Well it's a feature in that the ratification rules were part of an intentional illicit rewrite of the constitution. We could make it easier to modify like other nations, but that also makes it easier to repeal. I think the fix is to require more political parties to be involved, so a 51% majority of a single party can't remove federal laws whenever they have a majority. Then you wouldn't need an amendment to solve co…

Anything requiring bipartisanship can be gamed with synthetic parties, the legitimacy of which will surely be deemed a nonjusticiable political question.

Re: Supreme Court upholds broad conception of birthright citizenship

#630
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people on a work visa are "subject to", specifically because of two criteria (income tax and conscription) which must both hold, at least hypothetically? What if the US passes a constitutional amendment explicitly saying that foreigners on work visas cannot be conscripted, would that, by removing the hypothetical, have the implicit effect of making such people no longer "subject to" its jurisdiction? I think your…

I think this take is overly complex and silly. If you're subject to the laws, that's that. As an exercise, go read the Federal code and put each law that might potentially be applicable to people on a work visa into a pile. I guarantee that pile will be taller than you are by the time you're done. It will certainly be larger than two random examples.

Yes. You are correct. You completely missed the point of what this subthread is about, but yes. It's clear what "subject to the laws" means to normal people.
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