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It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

noemamag.com

621–630 of 822 posts

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the hard problem is impossible to solve using science even a billion years in the future. If science can in theory explain consciousness ever then it’s an easy problem.

This is the kind of religious thinking the GP is talking about. What other frontier of science do people claim will never be solved, except the existence of a god? Why are you so sure it cannot be touched?

No I don't think the GP was talking about that, and that's the problem. The hard problem by definition is a frontier that science will never be able to solve. So I can be sure because that's how it's described in the Chalmers paper introducing the hard problem. The hard problem is Chalmers proof that physicalism could never be true.

Like I said if science can explain something then that by definition is an easy problem.

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#622
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's backwards. People saying that there's no free will because determinism is implying that human consciousness is outside the physical world. Actually that's what TFA is about and makes a great job explaining it. My comment was responding to energy123 questioning there are philosophers that are both materialistic and consider human consciousness is "special". The moment you separate consciousness from all the phy…

That's strange, hard determinists are eliminativists, and eliminativists don't believe in consciousness, but I never saw them speaking about both at the same time.

They don't believe in consciousness... at all? I guess they don't recognize consciousness for some definition of it that includes agency.

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The main reason we believe consciousness exists is because we all experience it. So it’s hard to deny.

>> The main reason we believe consciousness exists is because we all experience it. What about the NPC meme? LLMs behave like NPCs, and some people seem no more conscious than an NPC (I didn't invent that meme).

NPC meme?

No sir, we are a little more high brow around here. Around these parts we talk about p-zombies and solipsism!

I'll bite though, do NPCs behave as if they believe they are conscious? If so, how do you know you aren't one of them?

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never heard of Gazzaniga before reading above comment, its quite fascinating. The brain, its left hemisphere, makes up the narrative.

Sorry my comment was unclear. My point is, the process of “making up a narrative” does seem to imply a subjective experience, doesnt it? My point is, the existence of the experiencer can’t be denied. Even if the experience itself is some kind of illusion, theres no coherent way to say that there is no entity having an experience. Every attempt to do so ends up implying the existence of an experiencer (the one having…

I think you've missed my point, which was about epistemology and dogma, given that you continue to repeat the dogma in question. Did you read my comment at all? To engage with my argument you'd have to confront the idea that your current assumptions will continue to be "the truth" hitherto, which it doesn't look like you've attempted to address at all.

To continue the ancient Greeks' mirror analogy, this would be akin to continuing to say "but who's eyes am I looking in then?" when I suggest that people in the future may not think there is a double of your soul in there. Totally pointless, and frankly, quite frustrating.

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#625

I found this article really frustrating. The author takes a blurry position between non-dualist naturalists like John Searle and eliminativists like Dennett and the Churchlands and doesn't seem to engage with them at all, much less probing into the issues with those views that might motivate people like Chalmers and Nagel. It crescendos with a hand-wave: > The mind is the behavior of the brain, properly described in…

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Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#626
post #506
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no prove that continuity really matters. In fact who goes to say that your current conscious self is the same as your self from five minutes ago. After all you do not feel what they felt. The only thing that makes you think that the two are related or even the same is your state (memories, emotions). Why would we even think about whether cloning is able to transmit consciousness when we don’t even know if co…

In that case you don't exist, since there is no such thing as "current". Every moment in time is either past or future, assuming time is continuous. The reals are infinitely infinite.

if time is continuous, there are no moments

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#627

You can affect your consciousness by hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. Pretty good argument for me to believe it is a physical phenomenon.

Let's say you have a dream where you hit yourself in the head with a hammer and pass out. Surely that won't lead you to believe that your consciousness arises from your dream brain.

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#628
post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been an idealist. I understand all the arguments. The base fallacy at the heart of all this is the one I mentioned. On the very last point: the conclusion that consciousness is thin, like a photograph, and the world thick -- follows from the most complete explanatory account of how consiousness works. The idea that there is no world, or that the world is a thin transcendental ego -- this abandons the project of…

You have fixed perception in your dreams also. See, you have this observation of subjective experience. One hypothesis for wher this come from, require only consciousness, and the second requires consciousness as well as a whole universe. And the second hypothesis brings up even more questions. Where did this universe come from? Who created it? Why was it created? The simple answer is that only consciousness really e…

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Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#629
post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been an idealist. I understand all the arguments. The base fallacy at the heart of all this is the one I mentioned. On the very last point: the conclusion that consciousness is thin, like a photograph, and the world thick -- follows from the most complete explanatory account of how consiousness works. The idea that there is no world, or that the world is a thin transcendental ego -- this abandons the project of…

You have fixed perception in your dreams also. See, you have this observation of subjective experience. One hypothesis for wher this come from, require only consciousness, and the second requires consciousness as well as a whole universe. And the second hypothesis brings up even more questions. Where did this universe come from? Who created it? Why was it created? The simple answer is that only consciousness really e…

It's not a simple answer, because its not an answer to any question. It is "simpler" to assume the thermometer readings exist without any thing to cause them, then they move up and down, and its "simpler" to assert: it is the nature of thermometers to move up and down.

This kind of simplicity isn't simplicity at all, it is to abandon saying anything. It is in the nature of consciousness to inexplicably have all the properties which are needed so as to seem the way it does, sure.

And what is this "consiousness" in the end, which has in its nature, the production of all material reality to serve as a fixed causal basis for perception? to generate perceptions of the brain and bodies of animals; of our death, and of a world which is describabl without any of its own properties? What is the nature of a consciousness which deliveries to us a world that requires none of it?

What is it that when I move the muscles of my eye, and what i see changes? What is it that i require a light in a room to see at all? That i require it to be the case that whatever I perceive, my fixed perceptions must always be as-if the laws of physics were true? What is it to say, "consiousness has the property of seeming as if when I see, I see because light scatters off a surface into my eye, and I can control the image genrated by moving the muscles of my eye?" and yet all of that sentence be false without the word 'seeming' ?

What madness to is it to say that mercury in a thermometer not only acts as-if it is in coffe, but in its nature, acts as if there is an entire world that it is moving through -- and its motion up and down is always according to laws and principles as if such a world existed?

This is no longer consciousness at all. When the nature of mercury in a thermometer is to act as if coffee exists, it is no longer mercury. When "consciousness" is taken to have all the features needed to provide the material world, it is no longer anything in a mind -- but has within it, the whole of the external, fixed, material -- and so it is itself now alike those things. When "consciousness" has finally been modified to produce everything within it, the term means nothing at all.

The entire system of properties and objects which are external to consciousness, narrowly defined, are still external within consciousness broadly defined. And with this broad definition comes all the laws of physics, all the properties of materiality, all of everything which mentions nothing of sensation. And the word "consciousness" has to bare all these properties? And you call this simple?

It is much simpler to answer the question: why does the mercurary in the thermometer move? is it because in its own nature is a simulation of an entire universe? No, its nature is simple. It is that there is such a universe it is inside.

And our consciousness is likewise simple.

Re: It is time to give up the dualism introduced by the debate on consciousness

#630
To me, the hard problem of consciousness is the link between observable physical activity of matter in the brain, and conscious experience. Science has found correlations between brain activity and experiences. But nothing is known about a mechanism of cause and effect which connects them.

Dualism is probably mistaken. The only evidence we have for anything about physical reality comes from experiences. It does not seem logical to believe that there is a physical reality which is separate from conscious experience. Quantum theory hints at this, with how the observer becomes significant. But this does not make understanding how it all works much easier.

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