Live data from Hacker News

The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

ergosphere.blog

621–630 of 668 posts

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't contradict the logic of the essay. There are flowers that look & smell like female wasps well enough to fool male wasps into "mating" with them. But they don't fly off and lay wasp eggs afterwards.

But there is a distinction we can make between flowers and wasps. If there is no distinction we can make between Schwartz and non-Schwartz, then we are susceptible to the sample problem with or without AI. And if there is a distinction then we can use that distinction to test Bob, and make him learn from his test failures.

Sure.

But the whole point is that there is a significant difference between Schwartz and non-Schwartz, that only turns up after they start working for real, producing new work rather than rehashing established material, and it takes years to detect. By that time, Bob's forty.

It isn't a "sample problem" it's a process problem. By perpetually raising the stakes and focusing on metrics (e.g. grades, number of publications for students, graduation rates for schools) we've created and fallen into a Poe's law trap. Adding a new metric isn't likely to help.

What might help? Making the metrics harder to game (e.g. something like oral exams, early and often), more discerning (grade deflation), and moving the wrong-track consequences earlier (start holding people back in grade school, make failing to graduate high school easier, make getting into college harder, etc.), and change the cash-cow funding models to remove the perverse incentives.

We aren't likely to do any of these things.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#622
post #55
post #6

The thing is, agents aren’t going away. So if Bob can do things with agents, he can do things. I mourn the loss of working on intellectually stimulating programming problems, but that’s a part of my job that’s fading. I need to decide if the remaining work - understanding requirements, managing teams, what have you - is still enjoyable enough to continue. To be honest, I’m looking at leaving software because the job…

>The thing is, agents aren’t going away... Aren't they currently propped up by investor money? What happens when the investors realize the scam that it is and stop investing or start investing less...

> What happens when the investors realize the scam that it is and stop investing or start investing less..

Nvidia chips get a lot cheaper

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#623
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But did this grind humanity to a halt? Yes - specific faculties atrophied - I wouldn't dispute it. But the (most) relevant faculties for human flourishing change as a function of our tools and institutions.

Someone brought up Socrates upthread: > People would have said the same about graphing calculators or calculators before that. Socrates said the same thing about the written word. If the conclusion now becomes “actually, Socrates was correct but it wasn’t that bad”, then why bring up Socrates in the first place?

Because of the "wasn't that bad" part. The point is that growing up in the presence of LLMs may well diminish specific capabilities of the users. But that on balance, future generation with newer tools don't find themselves 'stuck'.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with your logic is that you are hedging your arguments so much that the whole point become meaningless. If you are trying to argue that young aspiring scientists will be able to use LLMs to learn new concepts instead of doing the hard work themselves, then you also need to explain how they will be able to develop the skills to analyze and "run more thorough verification" INDEPENDENTLY of LLMs.

> then you also need to explain how they will be able to develop the skills to analyze and “run more thorough verification” INDEPENDENTLY of LLMs I’m sure the students will manage. This is the exact same discussion we’ve all been through before, during the rise of Wikipedia, just wearing a new hat. The answer is “vet your sources, don’t trust unsourced claims.” The way they’ll develop the skills is the same way aspir…

> The answer is “vet your sources, don’t trust unsourced claims.”

This was already a problem for Wikipedia (articles being written which upon further investigation were based on nothing but Wikipedia itself). With LLM themselves facilitating AI slop and plagiarism, this problem gets to a scale that it becomes impossible to control.

> I’m sure the students will manage.

The problem with your hubris is that you are not going to be the one solely facing the fallout when this blows up.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#626
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the social paradigm needs to change. Is everyone just going to roll over and die while AI destroys academia (and possibly a lot more)? My 40-some-odd years on this planet tells me the answer is yes.

you might be right but 40-some-odd years is a tiny amount of time.

Sure, relative to the universe, but it's more than those who haven't had idealism beaten out of them by the world.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#627
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people learn multiplication by memorizing a series of cards 2x2,2x3.. 9x9. Later this gets broken down to addition in higher grades.

That’s definitely not how I learned it, nor how my kids have learned it. I vividly remember writing out “2 x 3 = 2 + 2 + 2 = 3 + 3.” I later memorized the multiplication table up to 12, yes, but that was not a replacement of understanding what multiplication was

> but that was not a replacement of understanding what multiplication was

You're conflating an algorithm in N or Z with inherent meaning.

Let's shift over to R: Expand e*pi to repeated addition.

Think exponentiation is "repeated multiplication"? Try 2^pi.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If students want to type notes in class or papers in the library, they can use digital typewriters, which have word processing but nothing else. Only, replacing the guts of such a machine to contain a local LLM is damn easy today. Right now the battery mass required to power the device would be a giveaway, but inference is getting energetically cheaper. > Colleges that are especially committed to maintaining this t…

Just return to old fashioned styles of universities with tutorials, lectures, offline handwritten exams, and viva voce. It's very hard to hide the fact that someone else did an assignment when you have to defend it in front your tutor and a small group of fellow students and it's next to impossible to pass a final viva without knowing and understanding what you are talking about. The problem is we have all become add…

I think your last point is precisely why universities shouldn't limit access to llms beyond reasonable means. Make it hard for the weak to access, and easy enough for those dedicated. the ones to make an effort to cheat aren't there to learn anyway

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was there for that war. Kids weren't listening and didn't care back then either. If anything, Gen Z is the most politically-aware generation we've had since we started keeping track. Trump doesn't have to justify a single thing because the billionaires behind him know that every last bet is off and their very livelihoods are at risk, and his entire base of support up and down the chain are either complicit or foole…

Where exactly because in the Midwest we were very vocal about it. We have tons of military families out there and we were poor enough to feel almost like military service was inevitable if we didn’t get scholarships for school. You know the band NOFX had an album, the War on Errorism that was quite successful based on the fuckery of the bush administration. Punk rock and protest music was huge then.

i think wolves in voles clothing was more apropos, and is now as well

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just return to old fashioned styles of universities with tutorials, lectures, offline handwritten exams, and viva voce. It's very hard to hide the fact that someone else did an assignment when you have to defend it in front your tutor and a small group of fellow students and it's next to impossible to pass a final viva without knowing and understanding what you are talking about. The problem is we have all become add…

I think your last point is precisely why universities shouldn't limit access to llms beyond reasonable means. Make it hard for the weak to access, and easy enough for those dedicated. the ones to make an effort to cheat aren't there to learn anyway

so we should just let them through?
Post reply on HN