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India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

reuters.com

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Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#621

Post by bloak »

Y_Y wrote: post #609
iamnothere wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments in a position to conscript their citizens usually aren’t taking a lot of feedback on the issue. Yes, fight in advance to prevent such a situation, but don’t assume you will win. It’s good to have a backup plan.

If the third world war were declared tomorrow I think there would be precious few governments who didn't get started on conscription.

I'm not sure about that. Maybe? But... Firstly, there are surprisingly many people who are insanely patriotic so would volunteer anyway (perhaps fewer than in the past but perhaps still enough; see point three). Secondly, there are surprisingly many people who enjoy violence and killing people so would volunteer anyway (this probably hasn't changed). Thirdly, modern warfare doesn't need large numbers of people (this has definitely changed over time). And fourthly, a lot of modern people rather object to being ordered around by the government (I think this has probably increased a bit, at least; I can imagine that there are even people who would volunteer for military service when it's optional but would resist being conscripted).

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#622

Post by throwaway2037 »

brigandish wrote: post #368
throwaway2037 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone explain the history of "self ID" rules and laws in the UK? It seems like you do not have to prove your ID to the police. It is the reverse. As an outsider, I don't understand it.

The fundamental proposition on which all of English culture flows from is that of innocence . For example, in court, you do not have to prove your innocence because you are presumed innocent. In the case of ID cards and the like, the state does not rule over the populace, it rules on behalf of the populace. I am innocent and they work for me . Hence, I do not have to prove to some random government agent who I am unl…

    > The fundamental proposition on which all of English culture flows from is that of innocence.
Is this not true in all highly advanced democracies?

One thing I have found true (and somewhat different from other countries), when UK folks talk about how they view the police, it is generally beneficial. (Don't throw your tomatoes at me just yet!) Versus other countries, the police are viewed as more neutral or negative (especially the US). I always thought the idea of having no regular police carrying guns is a pretty brave policy in the 21st century. In many ways, imperfect policy, but it works well, and (appears) to reduce police violence against the public. On a more personal note, I also find the UK police are incredibly restrained during heated protests. Imperfect, yes, but they make a real effort. As an outsider, when I watch a short YouTube clip of a heated protest in the UK, and the police are doing their best to keep cool and not antogise the crowds. (I promise: I'm not here to shill for UK police; I'm sure they do some bad stuff too.) The best phrase that I ever heard from a British person to describe UK police: "They police by consent (of the people)." It is a powerful phrase and idea.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#623

Post by goku12 »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #604
goku12 wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If knives were technologically sophisticated enough that they could be programmed to refuse to pierce particular materials, you know that the government would be forcing manufacturers to include human flesh in that list I have serious doubts that their intentions are nearly as harmless or sincere as you project it. The government through DoT has repeatedly shown their willingness to control, invade, impose arbitrar…

If hypothetically they did have pure intentions, would that make it okay? I know very little about the politics of India, so I have no idea whether what you said is an objective assessment or if it's just the political talking points of one particular side, but at least in the US I find it very disappointing how the mainstream political opposition to creeping authoritarianism is often "Wow this is terrible, those guy…

> If hypothetically they did have pure intentions, would that make it okay?

No. What if they decide to double cross later? Or, what about the next guy in power? Don't leave any loose ends. Technically, it's the zero-trust principle. Don't rely on any security measure that depends on the other party keeping their word. Always assume that they're hostile. (Though I've been in trouble for using this when designing procedures. People come with the 'don't you trust us?' question.)

> Forcing people to run a particular piece of software on their phones is simply not a power the government should have, regardless of how good their intentions.

Agreed completely. My answer would be the same even if a different party/alliance was in power (Mine is based on infosec principles. Partisan politics won't change that). I explained the politics only to show that this isn't a hypothetical scenario. The supporters will otherwise use excuses similar to what was thrown around in the US (eg: You need to worry only if you're an illegal alien). Indians have been making this mistake repeatedly. Those in power know how to play with their nationalistic sentiments to override such concerns.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#624

Post by arunabha »

thisislife2 wrote: post #618

A government minister has clarified that the app is not mandatory but "optional" and can be deleted by the user is they don't want to use it - Sanchar Saathi app optional, can be deleted, says Telecom Minister Scindia - https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/sanchar-saathi-... .

> A government minister has clarified that the app is not mandatory but "optional" and can be deleted by the user

In India it doesn't really mean anything. As an example the biometric based id 'Aadhaar' is 'voluntary' on paper, The Modi govt had to concede this after a Supreme court judgement that made it clear that Aadhaar cannot be made mandatory. However in practice it's anything but. Govt officials will openly refuse to consider other forms of id. They have been informally told by the highest rungs of govt that they will be protected against any complaints and that they need to insist on Aadhaar.

The whole point is to make daily life practically impossible without Aadhaar so that the citizens give in and 'voluntarily' give their biometrics.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#625

Post by throwaway2037 »

georgefrowny wrote: post #453
throwaway2037 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone explain the history of "self ID" rules and laws in the UK? It seems like you do not have to prove your ID to the police. It is the reverse. As an outsider, I don't understand it.

Basically there is no universal ID system. You are not required to have a passport or driving licence, which are the usual IDs. There is an optional kind of ID you can use to prove your age if you don't or can't have those. Even if you do have one of these, you don't have to show it to the police if they stop you. The police can ask your name, but unless the police has "reasonable grounds" to search you, you can just…

This is a great post. I learned a lot. Thank you.

I remember once seeing the UK passport application. It struck me as having utterly byzantine requirements. When I read your post and think about it again, the lack of a universal ID could make it very tricky to get a passport, which is ultimately a national/universal ID.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#626

Post by nonethewiser »

ibejoeb wrote: post #215
wosined wrote: post #172

Sounds so authoritarian. Luckily, in the UK you only have to scan your face and ID to access cat photos.

It's all happening really quickly, so I haven't been able to keep up. I know Starmer said that digital ID will be mandatory to work in the UK. Did he mention how that would be implemented? Is the UK going to issue and official device to everyone in country, or are the people supposed to pay for it? What about homeless, poor, and the provisional residents?

> Is the UK going to issue and official device to everyone in country, or are the people supposed to pay for it? What about homeless, poor, and the provisional residents?

What about provisional residents? The digital ID proves identity. It is not a work authorization. Provisional residents can have a digital ID whether they work or not.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#627

Post by goku12 »

nunobrito wrote: post #69
goku12 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As concerning as it is, this is just another addition to the pile of malware that a modern smartphone is. Everyone including SoC manufacturer, RF baseband manufacturer, OEM, OS developer, browser developer and app developers add their own opaque blobs, hidden executable rings, lockdown measures, attestation layers, telemetry, trojan apps, hidden permissions and more. We lost the game when we allowed these players to…

Good to see someone well-informed. There is a lot being on that topic, you are not alone.

Thank you for your kind words and solidarity! Those who understand this should definitely take a public stance, because we're far too apathetic towards such exploitation. It's even more disturbing to see some people supporting measures like these!

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#628

Post by nonethewiser »

ibejoeb wrote: post #255
zarzavat wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that almost everyone in the UK who is able to work has a smartphone already. If they were to require digital ID for pensions or disability benefits there would be more problems.

Even if that were the case, by what mechanism are they commandeering it? That's essentially what I was thinking about in this India case. Undoubtedly most people will comply, but there will be a few who don't, so I'm curious what the plan is to bring them in line.

> Undoubtedly most people will comply, but there will be a few who don't, so I'm curious what the plan is to bring them in line.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by non compliance? Without the ID you will have significantly worse access to services and employers. I think the pressure will be on the people, not the government, to comply.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#629

Post by IshKebab »

ibejoeb wrote: post #215
wosined wrote: post #172

Sounds so authoritarian. Luckily, in the UK you only have to scan your face and ID to access cat photos.

It's all happening really quickly, so I haven't been able to keep up. I know Starmer said that digital ID will be mandatory to work in the UK. Did he mention how that would be implemented? Is the UK going to issue and official device to everyone in country, or are the people supposed to pay for it? What about homeless, poor, and the provisional residents?

Digital ID isn't really an issue. Most people already have several government digital IDs (government gateway, unique taxpayer number, etc.)

They should have branded it "simplified ID" or something like that.

I'll probably get instinctive downvotes but I think it's important not to mix up the actually-fine stuff with stuff like chat control, otherwise the message becomes trivial to dismiss.

Re: India orders smartphone makers to preload state-owned cyber safety app

#630

Post by nonethewiser »

ThatMedicIsASpy wrote: post #580
4gotunameagain wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about downloading reddit, which is infested with the weirdest pornography that exists ? While I am very much against facial scanning etc, it is quite clear that something needs to be done about the access of porn to kids. It is a drug like any other that we do not allow kids to consume.

So what is your plan on dealing with wikipedia? I accessed porn in 2011 when I was 11. I played Postal 2 when I was 10. But no English skills at that age means not much came out of that game at that time except cat silencers. How many kids these days play 18+ rated games?

> So what is your plan on dealing with wikipedia?

Im not sure I understand. Are you saying wikipedia has porn?

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