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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

bluewin.ch

621–630 of 655 posts

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#621

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

This is a maximalist view, in reality not feasible or scalable. Of course this is what we need to strive for, but aiming to decrease 'total unhappiness' with what we have, is a rational, if somewhat cynical, aim.

But even at aface value, more rational long-term approach would be to treat it, surely

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#622
post #274

So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…

As long as people are thinking clearly, i think it should be up to them. There is no financial incentive. No-one is making any money from assisted suicide in Switzerland.

> No-one is making any money from assisted suicide in Switzerland.

This is obviously an outright falsehood. Nonprofit doesn't mean that no one gets paid.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#623
post #83

So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…

If the society treats people badly, that's not a reason to deny them the ability to do final exit with dignity. We must fight to fix the problem cases, not take dignity away from those who suffer from it. > It’s relatively common for families to push people into nursing homes, So you are rejected by your family and punished even more by taking away a dignified exit strategy?

You got this the wrong way around: we should deal with the root cause instead of finding ways to make offing people acceptable.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re all connected. What you do with your body has a huge number of ripple effects. Obviously. So yeah, other people get a say.

That’s where you’re wrong. Nobody has a say what you do with your body.

The law disagrees.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#625

Not going to express an opinion, I'll just leave this except from the Hippocratic Oath [1], which reflects society's primary beliefs on this topic approximately up until the 19th century: > οὐ δώσω δὲ οὐδὲ φάρμακον οὐδενὶ αἰτηθεὶς θανάσιμον, οὐδὲ ὑφηγήσομαι συμβουλίην τοιήνδε In English: > Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.or…

The modern hippocratic oath has no mention of poisons, also doesn't require the oath to be sworn before the gods of the pantheon. Up until the 19th century, physicians didn't believe in germs either. Attitudes change with the knowledge we accumulate.

Change doesn't inherently mean better.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#627
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting thing. Aside from the constant complaints she's being held prisoner she's far happier now than she was 10 years ago, but the person she was no longer exists. How does that factor in to how wishes can be expressed. What is important - the mind or the body? Your assertion > If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100 Do…

Sorry I was a year off for US data. The expected life span is 4 years not 5 at 90. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html

So at 90 most people will have died by 95, and those that don't a significant proportion have severely life limiting health events, both mental and physical (strokes, heart attacks, falls etc)

What happens to 90 year olds in America that need a few weeks in ITU and a couple of months on a warn from a stroke when they can't pay?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#628
post #486

I used to be for assisted suicide but I have changed to be against. The things that changed my mind is seeing how it has gone in countries that have implemented it like The Netherlands and Canada with what I consider to unethical assisted suicide of people with mental disorders and disabilities. It smacks of state sanctioned killings disguised as charity. The second one was what kind of psychopath assists in the kill…

What kind of psychopath is against people dying in a dignified way?

Dignified is what we say it is.

Perhaps we should instead not see a part of our natural lives as undignified?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. This is the vice of “human respect”. Human beings do not have a final say about others. They can opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it, but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I am hated for th…

> It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. Care to name even a single objective good, and explain how exactly it is objectively good?

Instead of naming something concrete, it makes more sense to define what the only legitimate basis for morality and the human good is, which is human nature. If you deny that, then there is indeed no possible objective basis for the good. You could not differentiate between any two human action. Decisions would be entirely arbitrary. It would make no difference what you did, except factually in the sense that you did one thing and not another.

If you observe any animal or living thing, you will generally see it behaving in ways that seek to actualize it as the kind of thing it is. The nature of a thing bounds the potentials it has, and so circumscribes the limits of what can be actualized; this is a basic feature of all things, living or not, that they are "causally composed", as it were. In any case, this activity is not necessarily conscious. No squirrel is thinking "Gee, I need to collect nuts to grow and nourish my body and avoid predators so that I can produce offspring and actualize X, Y, and Z." In such cases, the squirrel is moved by various inclinations and appetites whose proper satisfaction actualizes certain ends of "squirrelness". A good squirrel (not in the moral sense, but in the sense of it exemplifying squirrel nature) is one that is able to actualize these potentials and does so to realize its squirrel nature. A bad specimen is one that cannot or does not. So, if you get a squirrel addicted to meth, and all it does is do things that get it more hits of meth while neglecting or impeding the realization of its squirrel nature, then you have a failure or deviance opposed to the good of the squirrel. The same could be said of a squirrel that is lethargic or one that lacks limbs.

Human beings are no different in this general sense, save that human beings are able to a) comprehend their circumstances, at least somewhat, and b) choose between apprehended alternatives. This means human beings are moral agents. So, here, a human being bears a certain responsibility for his choices and actions. If he chooses to act against his nature, especially as a rational, moral, and social agent, then he is acting against his nature and thus against his good. And if he is acting in such a way while understanding that he is doing so, then he now also has moral culpability for his defective actions.

In short, to be the kind of thing you are by nature is what is good. The act in accord with your nature is what makes good actions. Death is not good per se, and to act to destroy yourself is opposed to your being human and thus to your good. To intentionally do so is morally evil. (This must distinguished from self-sacrifice for another, which can be in accord with human nature under certain circumstances, but it is not the case here with Kahneman.)

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#630
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. This is the vice of “human respect”. Human beings do not have a final say about others. They can opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it, but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I am hated for th…

There is no such thing as objectivity in human experience. Every single thing, even attempts to be objective, are all filtered through the subjective experience of life. Our brains interpret objective reality and provide us a subjective translation.

Then if your claim also a mere subjective emanation, and an arguably mysterious one?

The subject receives the object in the mode of the subject, yes, but this does not mean that knowledge of the objective is impossible.

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