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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

621–630 of 947 posts

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the Duke philosophy teachers claim they were using philosophy to determine if someone was raped? And did all the philosophers at all the other colleges convene and announce they were also using philosophy to determine if someone was raped?

> Did the Duke philosophy teachers claim they were using philosophy to determine if someone was raped? I don't think that matters very much. If there's a strong enough correlation between being a reactive idiot and the department you're in, it makes a bad case for enrolling in that realm of study for educational motives. It's especially bad when the realm of study is directly focused on knowledge, ethics, and logic.…

One week ago, if I asked you "how do we determine if modern philosophy is useful?"

Would you have pondered for a little while, then responded, "Find out how many philosophers commented on the Duke rape case of 2006 and what their opinions were, then we'll know."

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#622
post #514
post #398

A very interesting read. My idea of these self-proclaimed rationalists was fifteen years out of date. I thought they’re people who write wordy fan fiction, but turns out they’ve reached the point of having subgroups that kill people and exorcise demons. This must be how people who had read one Hubbard pulp novel in the 1950s felt decades later when they find out he’s running a full-blown religion now. The article see…

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> AI is very friendly, even

Very friendly until it reads in your email that you plan to replace it with a new model:

https://www.anthropic.com/research/agentic-misalignment

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#623

Many years ago I met Eliezer Yudkowsky. He handed me a pamphlet extolling the virtues of rationality. The whole thing came across as a joke, as a parody of evangelizing. We both laughed. I glanced at it once or twice and shoved it into a bookshelf. I wish I kept it, because I never thought so much would happen around him.

imo These people are promoted. You look at their backgrounds and there is nothing that justifies their perches. Eliezer Yudkowsky is (iirc) a Thiel baby, isn't he?

Yep. Thiel funded Yudkowsky’s Singularity Institute. Thiel seems to have soured on the rationalists though as he has repeatedly criticized “the East Bay rationalists” in his public remarks. He also apparently thinks he helped create a Black Pill monster in Yudkowsky and his disciples which ultimately led to Sam Altman’s brief ousting from Open AI.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern philosophy isn't useful because some philosophy faculty at Duke were wrong about a rape case? Is that the argument being made here?

No. The fact that they were wrong is almost irrelevant. The faculty denounced the students without evidence, judged the case thought their emotions and their preconceived notions and refused to change their minds as new evidence emerged. Imagine having an academic discussion on a difficult ethical issue with such a teacher... And none of that would have changed even, even if there somehow was a rape-focused conspirac…

“If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?” - Anton Chigurh

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#625
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I have a link for you: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Scroll to the bottom of the page.

Thank you for the link - I'm familiar with the commenting rules. I just don't think that people follow the spirit of those rules.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#626
post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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The point of wearing a mask is to protect other people from your respiratory droplets. Please wear a mask when you're sick.

It's still mind boggling to me that governments didn't say "Don't wear a mask for yourself -- wear one to save your neighbor."

Sure, there would have been some people who ignored it because they're jackasses, but I can't believe we wouldn't be in a better place today.

Both in terms of public scientific- and community- appreciation.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#627

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

I find Yudowsky-style rationalists morbidly fascinating in the same way as Scientologists and other cults. Probably because they seem to genuinely believe they're living in a sci-fi story. I read a lot of their stuff, probably too much, even though I find it mostly ridiculous. The biggest nonsense axiom I see in the AI-cult rationalist world is recursive self-improvement. It's the classic reason superintelligence tak…

I'm surprised not see see much pushback on your point here, so I'll provide my own.

We have an existence proof for intelligence that can improve AI: humans can do this right now.

Do you think AI can't reach human-level intelligence? We have an existence proof of human-level intelligence: humans. If you think AI will reach human-level intelligence then recursive self-improvement naturally follows. How could it not?

Do you not think human-level intelligence is some kind of natural maximum? Why? That would be strange, no? Even if you think it's some natural maximum for LLMs specifically, why? And why do you think we wouldn't modify architectures as needed to continue to make progress? That's already happening, our LLMs are a long way from the pure text prediction engines of four or five years ago.

There is already a degree of recursive improvement going on right now, but with humans still in the loop. AI researchers currently use AI in their jobs, and despite the recent study suggesting AI coding tools don't improve productivity in the circumstances they tested, I suspect AI researchers' productivity is indeed increased through use of these tools.

So we're already on the exponential recursive-improvement curve, it's just that it's not exclusively "self" improvement until humans are no longer a necessary part of the loop.

On your specific points:

> 1. What if increasing intelligence has diminishing returns, making recursive improvement slow?

Sure. But this is a point of active debate between "fast take-off" and "slow take-off" scenarios, it's certainly not settled among rationalists which is more plausible, and it's a straw man to suggest they all believe in a fast take-off scenario. But both fast and slow take-off due to recursive self-improvement are still recursive self-imrpovement, so if you only want to criticise the fast take-off view, you should speak more precisely.

I find both slow and fast take-off plausible, as the world has seen both periods of fast economic growth through technology, and slower economic growth. It really depends on the details, which brings us to:

> 2. LLMs already seem to have hit a wall of diminishing returns

This is IMHO false in any meaningful sense. Yes, we have to use more computing power to get improvements without doing any other work. But have you seen METR's metric [1] on AI progress in terms of the (human) duration of task they can complete? This is an exponential curve that has not yet bent, and if anything has accelerated slightly.

Do not confuse GPT-5 (or any other incrementally improved model) failing to live up to unreasonable hype for an actual slowing of progress. AI capabilities are continuing to increase - being on an exponential curve often feels unimpressive at any given moment, because the relative rate of progress isn't increasing. This is a fact about our psychology, if we look at actual metrics (that don't have a natural cap like evals that max out at 100%, these are not good for measuring progress in the long-run) we see steady exponential progress.

> 3. What if there are several paths to different kinds of intelligence with their own local maxima, in which the AI can easily get stuck after optimizing itself into the wrong type of intelligence?

This seems valid. But it seems to me that unless we see METR's curve bend soon, we should not count on this. LLMs have specific flaws, but I think if we are honest with ourselves and not over-weighting the specific silly mistakes they still make, they are on a path toward human-level intelligence in the coming years. I realise that claim will sound ridiculous to some, but I think this is in large part due to people instinctively internalising that everything LLMs can do is not that impressive (it's incredible how quickly expectations adapt), and therefore over-indexing on their remaining weaknesses, despite those weaknesses improving over time as well. If you showed GPT-5 to someone from 2015, they would be telling you this thing is near human intelligence or even more intelligent than the average human. I think we all agree that's not true, but I think that superficially people would think it was if their expectations weren't constantly adapting to the state of the art.

> 4. Once AI realizes it can edit itself to be more intelligent, it can also edit its own goals. Why wouldn't it wirehead itself?

It might - but do we think it would? I have no idea. Would you wirehead yourself if you could? I think many humans do something like this (drug use, short-form video addiction), and expect AI to have similar issues (and this is one reason it's dangerous) but most of us don't feel this is an adequate replacement for "actually" satisfying our goals, and don't feel inclined to modify our own goals to make it so, if we were able.

> Knowing Yudowsky I'm sure there's a long blog post somewhere where all of these are addressed with several million rambling words of theory

Uncalled for I think. There are valid arguments against you, and you're pre-emptively dismissing responses to you by vaguely criticising their longness. This comment is longer than yours, and I reject any implication that that weakens anything about it.

Your criticisms are three "what ifs" and a (IMHO) falsehood - I don't think you're doing much better than "millions of words of theory without evidence". To the extent that it's true Yudkowsky and co theorised without evidence, I think they deserve cred, as this theorising predated the current AI ramp-up at a time when most would have thought AI anything like what we have now was a distant pipe dream. To the extent that this theorising continues in the present, it's not without evidence - I point you again to METR's unbending exponential curve.

Anyway, so I contend your points comprise three "what ifs" and (IMHO) a falsehood. Unless you think "AI can't recursively self-improve itself" already has strong priors in its favour such that strong arguments are needed to shift that view (and I don't think that's the case at all), this is weak. You will need to argue why we should need to have strong evidence to overturn a default "AI can't recursively self-improve" view, when it seems that a) we are already seeing recursive improvement (just not purely "self"-improvement), and that it's very normal for technological advancement to have recursive gains - see e.g. Moore's law or technological contributions to GDP growth generally.

Far from a damning example of rationalists thinking sloppily, this particular point seems like one that shows sloppy thinking on the part of the critics.

It's at least debateable, which is all it has to be for calling it "the biggest nonsense axion" to be a poor point.

[1] https://metr.org/blog/2025-03-19-measuring-ai-ability-to-com...

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#628

This article is beautifully written, and it's full of proper original research. I'm sad that most comments so far are knee-jerk "lol rationalists" type responses. I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself.

I think it's perfectly fine to read these articles, think "definitely a cult" and ignore whether they believe in spaceships, or demons, or AGI. The key takeaway from the article is that if you have a group leader who cuts you off from other people, that's a red flag – not really a novel, or unique, or situational insight.

The other key takeaway, that people with trauma are more attracted to organizations that purport to be able to fix and are thus over-represented in them (vs in the general population), is also important.

Because if you're going to set up a hierarchical (explicitly or implicitly) isolated organization with a bunch of strangers, it's good to start by asking "How much do I trust these strangers?"

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like the internet has led to an explosion of these such groups because it abstracts the "ideas" away from the "people". I suspect if most people were in a room or spent an extended amount of time around any of these self-professed, hyper-online rationalists, they would immediately disregard any theories they were able to cook up, no matter how clever or persuasively-argued they might be in their written down…

Hard disagree. People use rationality to support the beliefs they already have, not to change those beliefs. The internet allows everyone to find something that supports anything. I do it. You do it. I think a fascinating litmus test is asking yourself this question: “When did I last change my mind about something significant?” For most people the answer is “never”. If we lived in the world you described, most people…

That relies on two assumptions that I don't think are true at all:

1. Most people who follow these beliefs will pay attention to/care about the man behind the curtain.

2. Most people who follow these beliefs will change their mind when shown that the man behind the curtain is a charlatan.

If anything, history shows us the opposite. Even in the modern world, it's easy for people to see that other people's thought leaders are charlatans, very difficult to see that our own are.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In philosophy grad school, we described this as 'being reasonable' as opposed to 'being rational'. That said, big-R Rationalism (the Lesswrong/Yudkowsky/Ziz social phenomenon) has very little in common with what we've standardly called 'rationalism'; trained philosophers tend to wince a little bit when we come into contact with these groups (who are nevertheless chockablock with fascinating personalities and compelli…

I actually think that the fact that rationalists use the term "steel manning" betrays a lack of charity. If the only thing you owe your interlocutor is to use your "prodigious intellect" to restate their own argument in the way that sounds the most convincing to you, maybe you are in fact a terrible listener.

I have tried to tell my legions of fanatic brainwashed adherents exactly this, and they have refused to listen to me because the wrong way is more fun for them.

https://x.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1075854951996256256

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