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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#621

Post by spogbiper »

voltaireodactyl wrote: post #617
spogbiper wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) this has not happened on Android, where 3rd party stores and side loading have always been possible B) if people truly value the Apple lock down system, they will not use applications that don't comply with the lock down system

Just fwiw, my understanding is that this has already happened on both Android and iOS (via TestFlight): https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/

That's not Facebook moving to an alternative store, that's Facebook the company introducing another application outside of the store.

Also worth noting that they got called out and ultimately shut down for being shady. Even though they were operating outside of Apples locked down environment. It's almost like we don't need Apple to protect us, and in fact we can protect ourselves

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#622

Post by josephcsible »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #222
wavemode wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's specifically anticompetitive for Apple to force app developers to go through Apple Payments (with a 30% fee to Apple) for all purchases, otherwise their app is disallowed from being sold on the App store. There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors - it's purely a strategy for increased revenue for Apple. In antitrust terms, it is a form of Vend…

> There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors But there is a customer experience reason. As an iOS user, I very much appreciate that I can ask Apple to cancel some bullshit subscription that used to otherwise try to lock me in behind a labyrinth of added friction and timewasting. Not every problem is technological.

It would be one thing to say "you must offer our payment method as an option to users". It's another to say "our payment method must be the only option you offer to users". Just the former would be enough to cover your use case.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#623

Post by fragmede »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

Think about this for physical objects. If I bought your hardware, then decided to paint it bright pink in celebration of the fact that I like pink, but you don't like the color pink, should you be able to tell me not to paint it pink? I bought it, it's mine, so I can do just that. Why then, for digital objects, does that not follow?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#624

Post by illiac786 »

Validark wrote: post #529

I'm still stuck on the whole 30% tax. How is that considered even remotely reasonable?

I don’t think any developer considers it reasonable. I mean, apart from apple and the really brainless section of their fanboys, who thinks this is reasonable?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#625

Post by stahtops »

s_dev wrote: post #569
someperson wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't Apple set whatever pricing they want? Unless you're arguing that Apple has a monopoly. Also it's not a tax, though arguably it can be termed an "economic rent" (a technical term) that can be considered excessive, but I'm not sure about that.

>Why can't Apple set whatever pricing they want? Same reason any company can't set whatever they want. Vast majority of companies aren't deemed monopolies so this doesn't apply to them but this restriction holds over them once they grow to a certain size nonetheless. Even the most ardent capitalists/free market advocates agree that monopolies have to be regulated by the government. The real questions are what makes c…

I don't see an answer to the question you quoted in your post?

It sounds like you are implying that a monopoly classification would somehow be relevant to fee/pricing strategy?

The reality is that every company that has a hardware/software ecosystem has some form of AppStore. Sony, Nintendo, Valve, etc. Should we consider them all to be monopolies of their store? For fun, let's say they all are.

In order for that monopoly classification to have some impact, it would have to be used in an anti competitive way.

Let's say Nintendo wants 20%, Valve wants 30%, and Sony wants 40% of an apps sales price. You adjust your price for each platform, the software costs more on Steam Deck and PlayStation. Are Valve and Sony using their stores in an anti competitive way by charging more than Nintendo? I don't see how. It is not anti competitive for Sony to charge developers more.

An example of something anti competitive would be Sony telling you that you can only put things up in their shop if it's exclusive to Sony.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#626

Post by redeeman »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #601
jjani wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A point we're still lightyears away from. The lengths they go to in order to operate in China are magnitudes greater than to operate in the EU, yet EU makes them $10+ billion more profit than China. What would actually happen is that the US would start seriously threatening (blackmailing) the EU to a degree where it's forced to relent long before Apple would pull out. Apple's estimated operating profit from the EU is…

Why are you assuming that not only this kind of blackmail is even going to work, but that the EU isn't just going to kick out ALL of US infocoms instead ? (Because of this or because of other issues related to Trump or even Bush (Patriot Act).)

rofl, people would never accept not having their locked down iphones or facebook.

this would be a very losing battle for politicians

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#627

Post by realusername »

DidYaWipe wrote: post #606
realusername wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less sites would do this is Safari wasn't the last non evergreen browser lagging behind everybody else. Maybe the answer from Apple should be to improve Safari instead of restricting competition.

Whatever that means. Do you have specific complaints about Safari? FYI: ...fewer sites... ...if Safari were...

Yes I have, I worked with it for years, there's the officially supported standards and then there's the buggy reality you have to deal with. I've encountered bugs with backgrounds, zIndex, videos, forms, localStorage, SVGs, all basic browser features.

Then Safari also is the last non-evergreen browser so it's the slowest to update compared to all the other browsers. If you have a bug, there's a good chance you'll have it for years

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#628

Post by realusername »

gilfoy wrote: post #612
realusername wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less sites would do this is Safari wasn't the last non evergreen browser lagging behind everybody else. Maybe the answer from Apple should be to improve Safari instead of restricting competition.

I support Safari on a web app and have very rarely run into issues. It’s nothing like supporting even IE11 was.

I've also worked during the IE11 days and while Safari is indeed better, I'd only put it marginally better.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#629

Post by stahtops »

Validark wrote: post #529

I'm still stuck on the whole 30% tax. How is that considered even remotely reasonable?

How do you think Target and Walmart work? They pay someone $10 for a widget and mark it up 100% and sell it for $20.

App fees have basically been the same amount for all time. Literally every single developer looked at the numbers and decided to go into business.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#630

Post by hamilyon2 »

mysteria wrote: post #491
ClaraForm wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have disorganized thoughts about this, but it's not just a debate about vertical isolation vs not. 1. The size of Apple/Alphabet/Samsung makes it difficult to enter the market (see: factories having ridiculous MOQs for small-batch phone manufacturing), pushing everyone else out. 2. The size of the smartphone market makes it impossible to not have to deal with one of the above companies for certification, market pen…

> If someone told us in the 1950s a TV manufacturer was exerting pressure on our forms of information distribution and was choosing which voices get a seat at the table, we'd rightly call that archaic and wonder why people would accept a technology provider as a market-shaping force. But today we accept it nonetheless. A smartphone from Google or Apple is also pretty much required for certain government apps, banking…

Apple and Google censorship of apps not getting nearly as much attention and publicity as it deserves.
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