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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#621

Post by jeltz »

theGnuMe wrote: post #593
roywashere wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat related, as a teen in the 90s I worked at McDonald’s in The Netherlands. Because of the diet in the US, the bread used for hamburgers contained extra calcium to be more ‘healthy’, because many people did not get enough calcium intake. In The Netherlands, where people drink much more dairy products, especially back in the 90s, people would get plenty of calcium so there was no need to put extra in the bread.…

You have to drink 32 ounces of milk per day to get enough daily calcium.

Which is also happens to be the average daily milk consumption in the Netherlands. They drink 340 kg per year on average which is 33 oz per day. And people used to drink more milk back then.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#622

Post by permo-w »

bsza wrote: post #324
jdminhbg wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I love about this comment is that one person thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and posted it, and then a bunch of other people thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and upvoted it, and not a single one of them thought to check what the "right thing" is. Meanwhile, back here on Earth-1, there's no right thing, and…

While I acknowledge it is not a "solved" issue, I find it bizarre nonetheless, simply because it is so disproportionately low-stakes compared to the amount of controversy around it. Increased risk of cavities versus tentative evidence of losing 1-2 IQ points at 1.5 mg/L? Sounds like a Monty Python sketch to me that people would get so worked up over this.

you're really genuinely shocked that people would get worked up over chemicals being added to their drinking water without their consent? chemicals which have not been conclusively proven to be non-toxic? chemicals which are already in toothpaste giving people the choice to use them anyway?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#623

Post by alistairSH »

kebman wrote: post #611
karparov wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also restricting the freedom of communities if you ban them from adding fluoride to their water if they like to. This ban is anti-freedom. (Just like forcing them could be argued to be, even though that's what you argued against.) So, this ban is arguably reducing freedoms on multiple levels.

Personal freedom ≠ "freedom of communities"—there is no such thing. Freedom applies to individuals, not collectives. When a community makes a decision that affects all its members, that’s democracy, but democracy is not unlimited authority. A majority vote does not grant the right to infringe on individual autonomy, which is why safeguards exist against the tyranny of the majority. Banning fluoride does not restrict…

But nobody is forced to drink municipal water. You can go to the grocery and pallets of gallon jugs if you prefer.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#624

Post by pbhjpbhj »

ekianjo wrote: post #479
estebank wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between "no longer as necessary" and "let's ban it".

You can add fluoride in your own water if you want to. Nobody is preventing your own freedom to drink fluoride.

Yes, why don't the poor just eat cake when they can't get bread?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#625

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

theGnuMe wrote: post #593
roywashere wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat related, as a teen in the 90s I worked at McDonald’s in The Netherlands. Because of the diet in the US, the bread used for hamburgers contained extra calcium to be more ‘healthy’, because many people did not get enough calcium intake. In The Netherlands, where people drink much more dairy products, especially back in the 90s, people would get plenty of calcium so there was no need to put extra in the bread.…

You have to drink 32 ounces of milk per day to get enough daily calcium.

That's assuming you don't eat or drink anything else containing calcium, which is silly.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#626

Post by nemo44x »

amazingamazing wrote: post #614
nemo44x wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For children developing their “adult teeth” fluoride ingestion strengthens those teeth before they pop out. Topical has no effect obviously since they haven’t surfaced yet.

And for that there is fluoride mouthwash, which again isn’t ingested and would be more effective. > Regular use of fluoride mouthrinse under supervision results in a large reduction in tooth decay in children's permanent teeth. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6457869/#:~:text=Be...

That doesn’t work because it’s topical. You give kids vitamins to get fluoride into their system to strengthen their developing adult teeth.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#627

Post by zo1 »

verisimi wrote: post #355
hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

Perhaps, vitamins, micro doses of aspirin, and other low level medical treatments should also be added to water, for the benefit of the silent poor and sick.

I can't help but come away from this conversation with the impression that you people are talking about livestock and not human individuals with rights to their own body and bodily autonomy. This to me is straight out of the nazi/communist/fascist type of mindset.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#628

Post by prox »

abrookewood wrote: post #615
zouhair wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an FYI, water is also toxic.

Yes, I was going to mention this. Had a friend who went down the coast for a day trip with a bunch of mates. On the way back on the train (1.5 hour ride) they had a competition to see who could drink the most water and most of them had several litres, a few of them managed a bit more. My mate also had a bunch of chips/snacks, but not everyone did. Later that night, he got a desperate phone from his friends mum, screa…

Is this why after a day on the beach you want both drinks and salty snacks?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#629

Post by hilbert42 »

impossiblefork wrote: post #529
hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

But you will brush your teeth anyway, and then you apply fluoride topically. It works. Here in Sweden we decided against fluoride for this reason and the fact that it is in fact toxic. It isn't sensible to use systemic exposure when we can use topical exposure and can improve mouth health by education, so that people do what they're supposed to. The fluoride approach achieves a basic level of health, but you can do s…

"Here in Sweden we decided against fluoride for this reason and the fact that it is in fact toxic."

All water collected from natural sources contains some level of fluoride and other salts (which varies greatly from place to place). Does then your local water authority remove these naturally-acquired chemicals?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#630

Post by kebman »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #594
pclmulqdq wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the political philosophy of the US, the unit whose freedoms matter is the individual, not the community. Freedoms for individuals necessarily come from reducing the freedom of "the community."

But, taking the individual freedom argument to its ultimate implications, the Free individual is also Free to not drink tap water in a community that decided to add fluoride to their water supply, and is also Free to move to a community that decided against it.

It's not a "freedom" to be forced to move away from a community just because you want pure water. Moral philosophy: A democracy should not act as the tyranny of the majority, and governments (local or otherwise) should not overreach their mandate with monopolistic policies that negatively affect individual freedoms.

Use the same argument on air and it falls apart. "The Free individual is also Free to not breathe air in a community that decided to add lead to their air supply." This was a big debate in the 70's btw due to car emissions.

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