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The Frontend Treadmill

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Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#621

Post by evantbyrne »

apeescape wrote: post #474
evantbyrne wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the cultural issues with JS primarily boil down to the fact that every org needs JS, which in turn results in 1) a glut of junior/mid devs and 2) it naturally being ground zero for hype cycles. At this point I honestly wonder if most orgs should even hire for JS skills, or if they would be better served by hiring backend engineers and training them to write progressively enhanced UIs.

It depends on what you want to build. If you want to build impressive B2C software, this sounds like a recipe for disaster. I've worked with many backend engineers masquerading as full stack engineers who couldn't carbon copy a simple mockup design into a working UI if their life depended on it. Yet they never seem to notice how bad their implementation is, sometimes not even if you point it out to them even if the e…

It's fair to point out that there is real skill involved in that kind of work. However, I don't trust the average "frontend developer" to do pixel perfect implementations either. Many of them don't even seem to know CSS anymore. And not to discount your experience, but being able to implement a design is something that is easily testable when evaluating candidates. Because I come from the multimedia agency world, most of the candidates I've hired were actually for that kind of role. Accidentally hiring people who can't do the work points to a competency issue with management. As I've pointed out elsewhere, I have the awards to speak authoritatively on this. But perhaps me focusing on average skill is just an unfair way to look it, since I'm never really looking for average anyways.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#622

Post by nullpoint420 »

apsurd wrote: post #565
nullpoint420 wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mostly with web standards IMO, the pain from "mostly" starts to show when integrating React Router v6 with legacy frameworks and applications. I'm sure if you go all in on React Router v6 it's great. At my $DAYJOB we are migrating to Remix w/ GraphQL Federation. It's been a pain. Especially because we haven't finished any of these migrations: * ExtJS -> JQuery * JQuery -> React class components * React class compon…

your last note that adds not-invented-here abominations… if chasing endless frameworks of the month is bad, and building stuff in house is bad, then what do you propose to avoid making this mess?

I would propose that if you want to change frameworks, actually complete the migration from one technology to the other.

My problem is having all of them existing at once.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#623

Post by localghost3000 »

speleding wrote: post #597
localghost3000 wrote: post #148

> And if you’re an engineer, you will be able to retain much higher market value over time if you dig into and understand core web technologies Been working in FE for nearly 20 years and lived through several major paradigm shifts. I think I am qualified to have an opinion here: I definitely think that you will be a more well-rounded engineer if you know all the core web tech. So strongly agree there. I am skeptical,…

Or..or..or.. don't use a framework! You can do so much with HTML5 + CSS + Vanilla JS nowadays. I think the default "let's start by picking a framework" is often wrong, unless you know from the start this is going to be a large SPA. Yes, you'll write a little bit more boilerplate for stuff you get for free from a framework, but it will pay itself back in the long run because there is no upgrade treadmill.

Can you help me understand how this relates to my comment? We’re talking about what skills make you more marketable.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#624

Post by sodapopcan »

czk wrote: post #189

I don't disagree with the point being made but it should also be noted that React and Vue are both 11 years old. Hell, even Meteor.js (anyone remember this one?) is still around and being updated.

This is covered in the article. They change so much they may as well be new. There are tons of apps out there that have a mix of React class and functional components, for example. And didn't Svelte just make a huge fundamental change to its api?

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#625

Post by skwee357 »

localghost3000 wrote: post #148

> And if you’re an engineer, you will be able to retain much higher market value over time if you dig into and understand core web technologies Been working in FE for nearly 20 years and lived through several major paradigm shifts. I think I am qualified to have an opinion here: I definitely think that you will be a more well-rounded engineer if you know all the core web tech. So strongly agree there. I am skeptical,…

I have heard of first-hand stories where people interviewed and been asked to have experience in THIS particular framework. Despite the fact that the person had years of FE experience, worked with a similar framework, they were, eventually, rejected most likely due to the fact that they did not have experience with THIS particular framework.

So yeah, while I'm with you on the fundamentals, I'm also with you on the fact that it might not be the best approach if you want to stay employable.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#626

Post by cloverich »

eximius wrote: post #383
jchw wrote: post #145

> Whatever framework you choose will be obsolete in 5 years. I am predominantly not a frontend dev, but when I do do frontend work, (and I don't avoid it by any means,) I have been using React for the past... 10 years now? And while some sentiment has been moving towards Svelte, by the time Svelte overtakes React, it will have been in production for just as long probably. And Angular might eventually run out of steam…

React today looks very different from React from 10 years ago. Easily as different as being a different framework. So, there is some nuance, but the logic isn't dead quite yet.

As a daily React user for 10 years, and having used Ember, Angular, and several backend frameworks, I really don't agree. Hooks were the only meaningful change I can think of, and they took me about a day of real effort to grok, and a week to begin using well - in my existing React codebases no less. The primary way React works is unchanged since the very first day I learned it. It and SQL are probably the oldest tools I have at this point, and the ones that keep paying off year after year.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#627

Post by wing-_-nuts »

koreth1 wrote: post #463
ewzimm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fascinating, and I had no idea web dev influencers were so big. I checked, and there really are people with millions of followers doing development. Personally, the idea of learning anything related to coding through a video is extremely frustrating. It's a text medium. I want to look at things, take time, think it over, compare code, follow references, look up functions. That people like video formats isn't r…

> That people like video formats isn't really surprising to me since it's everywhere, but I still don't fully understand the appeal. Me either, but I have a hunch about why. Are you a fast reader? I am, at least compared to the population at large. And one of the reasons I can't stand video as a format for learning about coding topics is that it is so frustratingly slow compared to my reading speed. To get anywhere c…

I have a fairly fast reading speed, but I mostly consume my non fic (not technical) books in audio format.

Why? Attention span. If someone is reading to me, I tend to get 'pushed along' and it makes it easy to slog through a non fiction book that really could have been a pamphlet but the author needed it to be 400 pages. If I space out listening, it's usually not a problem because most non fic books are so repetitive. I suspect that's the secret behind video's popularity, people's attention is in short supply.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#628

Post by speleding »

localghost3000 wrote: post #623
speleding wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or..or..or.. don't use a framework! You can do so much with HTML5 + CSS + Vanilla JS nowadays. I think the default "let's start by picking a framework" is often wrong, unless you know from the start this is going to be a large SPA. Yes, you'll write a little bit more boilerplate for stuff you get for free from a framework, but it will pay itself back in the long run because there is no upgrade treadmill.

Can you help me understand how this relates to my comment? We’re talking about what skills make you more marketable.

I replied to the wrong comment! Sorry, I can no longer change it.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#629

Post by brokencode »

koreth1 wrote: post #463
ewzimm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fascinating, and I had no idea web dev influencers were so big. I checked, and there really are people with millions of followers doing development. Personally, the idea of learning anything related to coding through a video is extremely frustrating. It's a text medium. I want to look at things, take time, think it over, compare code, follow references, look up functions. That people like video formats isn't r…

> That people like video formats isn't really surprising to me since it's everywhere, but I still don't fully understand the appeal. Me either, but I have a hunch about why. Are you a fast reader? I am, at least compared to the population at large. And one of the reasons I can't stand video as a format for learning about coding topics is that it is so frustratingly slow compared to my reading speed. To get anywhere c…

People learn best in different ways. Some learn best by reading, some by tinkering, some by watching and listening. I heard this over and over in school and college.

I don’t think it has anything to do with reading speed. When taking in complex technical information, you spend more time thinking and trying to understand than actually reading.

If you’re finding that you can quickly race through content, it probably just means you find the content easy to understand because you’re already familiar with many concepts.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#630

Post by Aurornis »

ninininino wrote: post #208
Aurornis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s just nuts to me the degree to which FE development as a whole seems to embrace the breaking change, the deprecation, etc. I’m amazed at how much of this is driven by the FE influencers. The FE world has embraced social media, YouTube, and even Twitch to a degree that I haven’t seen in other domains. Influencers in these areas need to have a constant stream of fresh material to stay relevant, so they’re always…

I'm only recently getting into some of the dev influencer stuff (and enjoying watching some!), I've discovered Primeagen and Theo but that's about it. Are you willing to name some names? I am trying to still form my mental model about these people and what I should pay attention to and what I should ignore.

If you're watching for entertainment and, importantly, they're not selling you courses or a project they have a vested interest in, I wouldn't worry much.

Remember to take them as another perspective, not a source of truth.

The most problematic influencers are the ones who have pivoted to selling courses. If you find yourself thinking about dropping hundreds of dollars on someone's video course, spend a couple days reading free learning materials first so you can realize that it's almost always not worth it, no matter how much the smiling cheerful influencer pretends they're only trying to help you.

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