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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#621

Post by lovich »

kelipso wrote: post #595
libertine wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in the wrong place to spread Russia propaganda, here we go: > After its dissolution in 1991, Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world and held about one third of the former Soviet nuclear weapons, delivery system, and significant knowledge of its design and production. Ukraine inherited about 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICB…

Lol using wikipedia as a source. Either way, the fact remains that there was no set of events in which Ukraine would have been allowed to have nukes. If Ukraine has said no, either the new government would be replaced or Ukraine would have gotten invaded by US and Russia simultaneously. It's nice that people say Ukraine and the other countries owned the nukes or whatever and have them sign an agreement to "hand over"…

If they couldn't have kept them, why were they asked?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#622

Post by n4r9 »

tim333 wrote: post #613

Trump no doubt will say this is a negotiating ploy to get Zelensky to make concessions but you have to wonder why all the concessions have to be made by the victim and not the aggressor. Why not ask Putin to pause killing Ukranians or return some of the kidnapped children or some token of goodwill?

You also have to wonder why Vance was less bothered by Putin not continually saying "please" as he was by Zelenskyy not continually saying "thank you".

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#623

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jordanb wrote: post #40
Trasmatta wrote: post #5

This was clearly the plan all along. The farce at the White House was just the pretense.

Yeah I think the whole thing was planned in Riyadh between Trump, Putin and MBS. Which makes one wonder what MBS's role is. My theory is that he will organize OPEC production cuts, designed to boost Russia's economy and crush Europe's.

Wouldn't that just accelerate Europe's transition to EVs? They could even import Chinese EVs to make oil mostly irrelevant in a year or so.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#624

Post by thomassmith65 »

herculity275 wrote: post #206
jisnsm wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine the very same thing being said if the USA had pulled out of the War on Terror. B-but they have WMD! The NYT said so!

It really sucks that "Saddam has WMDs" broke an entire generation of Americans into knee-jerk contrarianism regarding any global conflict US is involved in. What's the "WMD" equivalent here - what do you think the media is lying to you about? That there's an ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is something all involved parties acknowledge.

The best explanation for people who obsess over 'Saddam has WMDs' is that they were gullible enough, at the time, to believe it.

On a related note, a lot of the morons who gave GWB a second term seem to be populists now. They would be more helpful to America if they stopped trying to understand the world around them, and instead just voluntarily stopped voting.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#625

Post by libertine »

kelipso wrote: post #595
libertine wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in the wrong place to spread Russia propaganda, here we go: > After its dissolution in 1991, Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world and held about one third of the former Soviet nuclear weapons, delivery system, and significant knowledge of its design and production. Ukraine inherited about 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICB…

Lol using wikipedia as a source. Either way, the fact remains that there was no set of events in which Ukraine would have been allowed to have nukes. If Ukraine has said no, either the new government would be replaced or Ukraine would have gotten invaded by US and Russia simultaneously. It's nice that people say Ukraine and the other countries owned the nukes or whatever and have them sign an agreement to "hand over"…

Of course Wikipedia, or any other source, wouldn't be enough. By the way, what is your source?

Here's the man himself, Bill Clinton, stating it was not only a possibility for Ukraine to keep their nukes, but also that it was a mistake he regrets making: https://youtu.be/nKoba5GvNsc?si=3T1W6BvrqEqvkpNE

So not only you're spreading propaganda, and lies, without sources to support your claims, you're even doubling down on more fantasy.

The fact is that Ukraine could use those nukes, both the ICBM ones that would require the "magical codes", also the ones deployed by the bombers, they also had the technical know how to further develop their nuclear arsenal, as well as having the fuel to produce more.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#626

Post by gershy »

DidYaWipe wrote: post #88

The USA stands in miserable disgrace.

I'm not sure what to think. Ukraine can't militarily defeat russia or reclaim its lost territory, and as long as it continues to try to do so, there will be war and the world will be less stable. But if a line is not drawn against russia, I think we have every reason to believe putin will continue to conquer more land over time.

Russia is the source of instability, but it can't be defeated or reasoned with. What to do?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#627

Post by jajko »

preisschild wrote: post #570
jopsen wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt Denmark will get nukes, nor am I sure I'd be in favor of nukes. But I can see the argument that having the ability to nuke 50m Russians might deter them from attacking 5m Danes. And I'd personally hate to sit in a trench. Which is a real risk if Russia attacks the Baltics and only half of NATO shows up. So maybe we should get nukes and preposition them in the Baltics. I'm sure our politicians wouldn't want to…

> I doubt Denmark will get nukes, nor am I sure I'd be in favor of nukes. Ideally, we'd have an EU military that takes control of nuclear weapons for example and automatically use them to retaliate when enemy nuclear weapons are launched against EU territory.

Yeah not with Orban or Fico involved, those are both hardened criminals involved in murders too. Subverting EU is their morning activity.

I'd say no EU country should rely on full defense from the rest, each big one should start on their own in hardcore mode: drones, more heavy drones, optic cable drones, drone swarms and then artillery, ammunition for it and air defense (probably the hardest), then the rest. Himars is cool tech but thats a very expensive tech to develop and certainly in current numbers doesn't affect outcome of war. License/buy tech from ukrainians since they have best hands one warfare experience from whole europe, setup manufacturing with them, helping them and ourselves. What should be shared ie nuclear stuff thats too much for a single country.

Silos with main manufacturing, copied elsewhere in smaller numbers. Defense can be good business, just look at US after WWII, not happy that we are heading in that direction but there is no other way if we want to keep freedom. I've grown up behind uron curtain oppressed by soviets cough cough russians, and let me tell you, many people died trying to escape to that freedom. Its invaluable once you don't have it, not to everybody but to many.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#628

Post by sethammons »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #389
smac__ wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA was part of the Budapest Memorandum. This is a pretty strong reason for the USA to provide support for Ukraine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

The Budapest Memorandum says the US wont invade Ukraine. It is easy to do that from home.

from the wiki, 4th point in the agreement:

> Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

Ukraine was the victim of an act of aggression from Russia. Pretty obvious that the US gave its word it would protect them.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#629

Post by Henchman21 »

bwb wrote: post #182
dgellow wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is 2-3 weeks, given how fast things are shifting

They are already drafting an end to sanctions, which is unbelievable.

Its only unbelievable if your head has been stuck firmly in the sand.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#630

Post by blargey »

JoshuaDavid wrote: post #550
generic92034 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countering pushed narratives with facts and arguments is a complete failure. It does not reach the emotional core, which is "us versus them".

Twitter community notes are popular and pretty effective at calling out misleading information that has gone viral (organically or inorganically). I think writing off facts and arguments is premature.

Is that sort of stuff actually effective against propaganda though?

I'd assume that by the time a disclaimer is written up, submitted, and accepted according to whatever the criteria is, the original un-disclaimered message has been received and digested by its target audience.

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