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How the U.K. broke its own economy

theatlantic.com

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Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#621

Post by throwawayffffas »

junto wrote: post #503
DrScientist wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot of irrational online hate for wind power - even going as far as wanting to dismantle offshore farms. I do wonder who is fermenting this - the obvious place to look here is the fossil fuel industry - they have the means, the motive and a track record of flexible morals. A lot of currently very rich and powerful people lose in a world where most countries and even people can generate most of the power they…

The same narrative is being pushed on Germany for instance. I think it’s quite simple. Renewable energy is a route to energy independence for various nations that were previously highly dependent on foreign nations and corporations and there are very powerful fossil fuel interconnected groups / nations that are terrified of that. Russia wants Germany to buy Russian gas. The U.S. wants Europe to buy their gas’s too. T…

It's not Russia, the US and the Saudis, it's Exxon Mobil, Shell, BP, etc. honestly Aramco and Gazprom probably have very little influence on decision making in Europe and the US compared to the local interests.

> The other aligned narrative is nuclear and I consider it to be Trojan horse to continued reliance on fossil fuels at least for the next 25-30 years whilst countries like Germany would argue with NIMBY’s and politics to try and even build just one new power station.

Nuclear is not a Trojan horse, nuclear proliferation and meltdown fears condemned Europe to energy dependence. It's too late now, the capacity should have been built 30 years ago, but the successful fearmongering meant there was virtually no construction for the last 30 years[1].

The real Trojan horse is natural gas, they greenwashed it, invested and continue to invest in natural gas projects[2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_reactors_in_Euro... 2. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/06/world/eu-votes-natural-ga...

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#622

Post by sublimefire »

piker wrote: post #78

My own [local government] is so stupid its own massive 7-figure park project got blocked by [local government] planning halfway through. For about a year instead of a park we’ve had two massive holes surrounded by fences. Too many taxes, too much nimbyism. This one really is that simple.

When I was working for various local govs there was a usual remark being made. You cannot fire shitty employees. There are great ones, but some are just getting the pay check and make things worse and there is no way to fire them. It is just not practical.

I am not saying those are the main problem but it contributes to the lack of efficiency.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#623

Post by timerol »

guardian5x wrote: post #619

"More than a decade ago, Germany began to phase out nuclear power while failing to ramp up other energy production. The result has been catastrophic for citizens and for the ruling government. In the first half of 2024, Germans paid the highest electricity prices in the European Union." That completely ignores that Germany made itself dependent on cheap Russian gas which is not delivered anymore. It's not like nuclea…

Already-built nuclear is cheap to keep running. Constructing new nuclear is what's expensive. Phasing out nuclear means that you already paid the big cost, but don't want to get the benefits

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#624

Post by alexb_ »

rickdeckard wrote: post #480

"These problems are obvious to many British politicians. Leaders in the Conservative and Labour Parties often comment on expensive energy and scarce housing. But their goals haven’t been translated into priorities and policies that lead to growth." I can't find this mentioned anywhere in the article, but the current imbalance of supply and demand and the resulting high prices is quite beneficial for parts of the real…

Have we tried just taxing land?

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#625

Post by aprilthird2021 »

booleandilemma wrote: post #561
TheFuzzball wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. When my boomer dad complains about the Pakistani family he went to sell something to having 2 BMWs it's definitely racist. But the racism is inflamed by poor economic conditions, and the rationale is "how come these people that aren't even from here have a better life than me?" Sadly, people seeking power know this and use the racism to get power and don't fix the underlying cause, which was never i…

If they were of the same race as your dad, the question "how come these people that aren't even from here have a better life than me?" would still be valid.

If he can tell they're not from there, then he'll be mad. If he thinks they are fellow Englishmen he'll be less mad. That's the point, how prejudice often has a ground in economic conditions

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#626

Post by lenerdenator »

mc32 wrote: post #537
rickdeckard wrote: post #480

"These problems are obvious to many British politicians. Leaders in the Conservative and Labour Parties often comment on expensive energy and scarce housing. But their goals haven’t been translated into priorities and policies that lead to growth." I can't find this mentioned anywhere in the article, but the current imbalance of supply and demand and the resulting high prices is quite beneficial for parts of the real…

A big part of the problem is the UK used to let in about 100 thou immigrants yearly, that figure is now over a million per year. That means putting up a new house every few minutes. Unless you let Lagos or Caracas-style slums flourish, that’s not going to happen.

If you can't get local population to grow, you have to bring in your labor from somewhere else. And of course, like most wealthy nations, the British birth rate has been in the toilet since the 70s.

This is also a reason that Brexit happened. Arguably the reason, even. There are a lot of working-class people whose families have been in the British Isles for centuries who look at the lack of progress relative to what their ancestors saw during the Empire and postwar eras, and want someone to blame. In this case it was Brussels' migration policies, even though it was providing essential labor that the British economy needs and cannot get from "real British" people because they don't have kids at the necessary rate.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#627

Post by EmptyCoffeeCup »

Symbiote wrote: post #507
mantas wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if EU parliament is not full of clowns too. At least local parliament has some windows to break close by. - citizen of EU member, not happy with either national or eu parliaments :D

The EU parliament is elected with a much fairer system than the British one, half of which isn't even elected but nominated in return for bribes or being a bishop.

Hardly, it's full of people that each individual member state had no say on whether they were there or not.

Why should someone elected by the Polish electorate, or the Romanian one, have any say over what the British or Germans do? Especially when it's British & German money funding the project?

The EU is clearly going in a direction the British people do not like, and therefore they did the only thing they could after concessions were refused -leave.

If the EU were only interested in co-operation and trade, this would not be a problem. As it is, apparently it _is_ a problem. Why would that be, except to punish the British for daring to say "this isn't working - we don't want tighter integration"

Meanwhile, the EU continue to fiddle whilst Rome burns. British politics may be boned, but the people now have the ability to sack the lot of them as they did last summer. That is worth far more than a few % of GDP (which the British govt. have no interest in, or they'd be pushing policies that help growth - lower taxes, higher speed-limits, cheaper trains, reduction in gas prices etcetc) : as it is, all the stories we read are about slower roads, more expensive trains and higher taxes.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#628

Post by matt-p »

sevensor wrote: post #616

From the US (where we have problems of our own, believe me), the UK, and especially England, look like a powerful case for federalism. As far as I can tell, the entire country is run by and for rich Londoners, with no countervailing local power having the opportunity to make sane government decisions.

We do have devolved powers, so Scotland and Wales* have functioning Regional Governments, with devolved funding from a formula that gives them substantially more money than they collect in tax.

So they should be doing great right? Wrong. They massively struggle and yet live in a "best of both worlds" scenario, they can run the health service, transport, taxation policy and all things that affect regular people without having to worry about the annoying stuff like defence and foreign policy. So why do they still have very poor outcomes? Look at the welsh NHS, it's horrific.

Essentially most of our productivity comes from London and the SE. That means by the way if you're smart and educated but grew up in the welsh valleys, the first thing you do is move to London/SE where all the jobs are. Can Wales attract a google office to Cardiff when all the talent is in London?

*NI is a long story.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#629

Post by kergonath »

ascorbic wrote: post #364
kergonath wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These libertarians are mostly an American phenomenon. In Europe it’s “small-government” conservatives who do this. (They are not really about small government, though, and they never reduce deficits; they are just for upwards wealth redistribution).

The UK tried a mildly libertarian government in 2022. The experiment lasted 50 days.

Indeed. It was a shame that the country suffered in the experiment but it was quite cathartic to watch her faceplant so utterly and publicly, for purely ideological reasons.

In the end, her stint will be what she deserves: a footnote in history, and the answer to the pub quiz question “who managed to beat Johnson as the absolute worst PM in the history of the UK?” Maybe someone will call a variety of lettuce “truss”. That’d be entertaining.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#630

Post by throwawayffffas »

monkeycantype wrote: post #97

I want to see more discussion from the perspective that the economy and government is not just a process, an institution, but a contest, an arena. Outcomes which are presented as a failure, are not merely a failure, but like a punch in a boxing match that misses its mark, occurs in a wider context, and against deliberate opposition. A failed project might be a failure for most, but for opponents it may be a victory,…

Well after about 15 years of governance, the conservatives were voted out of power. Unfortunately the problems in the energy and housing sectors are structural and mostly located in the local government, and I am unsure whether this government has the political clout or even the will to deal with them considering the immense entrenched interests involved.
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