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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#621

Post by ethersteeds »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #605
autoexec wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or do we think Apple has less of a leg to stand on with US and would be more likely to roll over? Apple has no leg to stand on at all. When the NSA comes to your door and demands access to everything you have you don't get to say no. There is no court you can appeal to, and they'll take whatever they want and order you to keep your mouth shut about it. They'll walk right into your headquarters and data centers, for…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... Obviously, Apple is going to comply with US federal law, given that their headquarters and employees are there, as well as their most profitable market. But when possible, they have shown themselves willing to fight against intrusion.

Two things,

First, that's notably the FBI and not NSA. As gp says, NSA has greater powers with less legal oversight on national security grounds.

Second, a cynic might argue that Apple put up a noisy, principled fight that one time precisely to create the perception that you have here. It could be the FBI learned data requests to Apple are a dead end!

Or the two came to a mutually beneficial understanding: "don't come in the front door waving a court order for the cameras and we'll see what we can do when our reputation isn't on the line, see? And maybe if we help out, that antitrust investigation isn't necessary after all!"

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#623

Post by thewebguyd »

sandworm101 wrote: post #228
cmsj wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple still has legal entities in the UK. Pulling out cloud services would be insufficient to prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities.

More importantly, apple has customers in the UK. The business from captured apple users is more valuable than apple's privacy reputation. This all seems very similar to RIM and the aftermath of the riots in the UK. The backdoors became too obvious for customers to ignore. Did not go well for RIM in the market afterwards.

> More importantly, apple has customers in the UK. The business from captured apple users is more valuable than apple's privacy reputation.

Is it though? I wonder how much of Apple's revenue is from the UK, probably around 5-6%? Apple isn't exactly as popular in the rest of the world as they are in the US.

Would damaging their privacy reputation globally be more valuable than the UK market? I honestly don't know, but my hunch says no - they are likely to want to keep their reputation and dump the UK market. I think more likely is Apple is going to be able to get the UK to cave in. Apple is extremely competent with PR, and would be able to spin any kind of pull-out or degraded service in the UK as the government's choice and fault, to the ire of UK citizens.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#624

Post by tines »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #572
blindriver wrote: post #535

The US is the only country with codified freedoms from the government. Every other country has rights given by the government to their citizens. The US may suck every now and then, but the US constitution is one of the best things in human history. It protects us from governments like the UK that don't think they have any limits to control their citizens.

While the US does have a written Constitution that explicitly limits government power (notably in the Bill of Rights), many other countries also have codified documents or legal frameworks that protect citizens from government overreach. For example, Germany's Basic Law (Grundgesetz) was created after World War II to ensure the protection of human rights, including freedoms of speech, assembly, and religion, among ot…

Hello ChatGPT

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#625

Post by thewebguyd »

em500 wrote: post #115
latexr wrote: post #89

> When asked by The Post whether any government had requested a backdoor, Google spokesman Ed Fernandez did not provide a direct answer but suggested none exist: "Google cannot access Android end-to-end encrypted backup data, even with a legal order," he stated. No, that does not suggest none exists, it only says they don’t have access to it. They could have chosen or have been ordered to give the keys to the governm…

Before people immediately think the worst of Google or other corporate representatives, be aware that people working in these companies need to weight their words carefully. From The Verge's article on the issue: The UK has reportedly served Apple a document called a technical capability notice. It’s a criminal offense to even reveal that the government has made a demand. Similarly, if Apple did cede to the UK’s dema…

> if Apple did cede to the UK’s demands then it apparently would not be allowed to warn users that its encrypted service is no longer fully secure.

One would think this runs afoul of other laws though, truth in advertising and similar.

Its such a legal minefield, and the UKs request borders on violating the sovereignty of other nations I can't see Apple complying, but maybe that's hopium talking.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#626

Post by aucisson_masque »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #502
TrueDuality wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as Apple has a business presence in the UK, they are subject to the laws the UK imposes on them even if they're vastly overreaching and impose on other government's citizens. Not supporting cloud services wouldn't be sufficient to avoid the compliance requirement, they would have to formerly stop doing business in the UK. Looking at the market size that might be a decision that Apple is willing to make as it…

> As long as Apple has a business presence in the UK, they are subject to the laws the UK imposes on them even if they're vastly overreaching and impose on other government's citizens. I wonder if this means that Apple would ultimately take the same approach that they have in China, where the iCloud data and services are entirely localized within China and allows the Chinese government unrestricted access.

one can't compare china and the uk.

china had leverage because of the manufacturing happening over there and the incredible market opportunity, UK doesn't have much.

technically i believe apple could get out of the UK market to provoke a backslash on the government.

If they concede, other government will use the exact same blackmailing technique and one can say it will be the absolute end of their "privacy" marketing campaign they spent so much money into.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#627

Post by dwaite »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #502
TrueDuality wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as Apple has a business presence in the UK, they are subject to the laws the UK imposes on them even if they're vastly overreaching and impose on other government's citizens. Not supporting cloud services wouldn't be sufficient to avoid the compliance requirement, they would have to formerly stop doing business in the UK. Looking at the market size that might be a decision that Apple is willing to make as it…

> As long as Apple has a business presence in the UK, they are subject to the laws the UK imposes on them even if they're vastly overreaching and impose on other government's citizens. I wonder if this means that Apple would ultimately take the same approach that they have in China, where the iCloud data and services are entirely localized within China and allows the Chinese government unrestricted access.

Apple offers the same escrowed key and non-escrowed key (advanced data protection) features in China as far as I'm aware. The extra capability GCBD has would be access to protected at rest data like iCloud email.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#628

Post by thewebguyd »

cpymchn wrote: post #77

What's new here? As mentioned in the article, Salt Typhoon and the recency of this request by the UK. At this point they should know better. My pet theory is anytime the US wants to do something illegal under US law, they simply ask the UK to do it and vice versa. That's why Salt Typhoon isn't and never will be a lesson learned.

It's exactly how the five-eyes information sharing works.

Participants spy on each other's citizens on the other's behalf and share data, to avoid the legality of doing so to their own citizens.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#629

Post by SkyBelow »

atonse wrote: post #239
em500 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before people immediately think the worst of Google or other corporate representatives, be aware that people working in these companies need to weight their words carefully. From The Verge's article on the issue: The UK has reportedly served Apple a document called a technical capability notice. It’s a criminal offense to even reveal that the government has made a demand. Similarly, if Apple did cede to the UK’s dema…

But they can still notify the public, through those canary statements. (I forgot the name commonly used). For example (a simplistic one), you can have a statement like "we do not have any backdoors in our software" added to your legal documents (TOS, etc). But once a backdoor is added, you are compelled by your lawyers to remove that statement. So you aren't disclosing that you have added a backdoor. You're just upda…

Such actions, even just the act of deleting text, conveys a message you were ordered to not convey and the government is not likely to take too kindly to that.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#630

Post by 14 »

blindriver wrote: post #535

The US is the only country with codified freedoms from the government. Every other country has rights given by the government to their citizens. The US may suck every now and then, but the US constitution is one of the best things in human history. It protects us from governments like the UK that don't think they have any limits to control their citizens.

Well didn’t Snowden reveal that is a bit of a stretch in what actually happens? Don’t the 5 eyes just just look over each other citizens and report to each other? The constitution only protects up until a national security threat and then ignored is it not? Still I think the US is an amazing country with some of the strongest protections from the government. I just don’t think it is as rock hard as you believe.
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