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CDC data are disappearing

theatlantic.com

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Re: CDC data are disappearing

#621

Post by _heimdall »

hackyhacky wrote: post #595
_heimdall wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like we just have a very different view the relative merits of individual vs collective (or societal) approaches. I very much shy away from control, and that generally means trusting the individual to generally do what is best or at a minimum accept that the result of that will at least be more resilient than the result of a collectivist or top-down approach. Both have risks for sure and there are absolutely t…

Since we're talking about the functioning of democracy, which necessarily requires a plurality of people, I don't see how anything other than group- or society-level action could possibly make any difference.

Oh we were a very individualistic nation for much of our history. That does come and go over the years, and like anything it has pros and cons, but it can be done.

If group or societal solutions are the only viable option we might as well cut to the chase and go full socialist. I don't mean that derogatorily, if collectivism is the only solution when individual choices inevitably lead to bad outcomes why bother trying individual at all?

The challenge with individuals making choices that ultimately move in us a better direction is fear. That is really embracing uncertainty and trusting the average person to do what they think is best or "right." Its my opinion that we should absolutely embrace that uncertainty and trust people, but that doesn't land well for most people today.

A group or collectivist solution sounds much safer. As long as we have a good plan and trustworthy people in charge, we just need to empower them to do what they know we need. That can run into just as many, and just as dangerous, end points as an individualist model.

Both are risky. Both can work, and both can go horribly wrong. I just prefer the one where I get to trust myself and everyone around me to think for themselves and do what they think is best. I also personally prefer the bad result of reaping what we sow rather than it going wrong because the well intended leader was wrong or the ill intended leader was right (I.e. got what the evil end they wanted).

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#622

Post by hackyhacky »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #609
hackyhacky wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody would disagree that 1+1=2, basic physics tells one that COVID is not spread by 5G towers, But yet people believe these things, and will believe a source that supports them. What's obvious to you is not obvious to others.

Okay? Then you disprove their claims and their bad sources. If they don't want to understand that, there's nothing to do. They are not a reasonable audience to debate with logos at that point. Them denying nature's truth doesn't allieve them from nature's forces.

Do you honestly think that people who believe these things will be swayed by facts and evidence?

Go watch some flat earther videos on YouTube. Lots of people are very committed to a particular conclusion and have developed elaborate processes for disregarding evidence that would persuade a rational person.

The US political system right now is built on believing easily disprovable lies. Unfortunately, their bad choices affect everyone.

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#623

Post by _heimdall »

lelandbatey wrote: post #511
_heimdall wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numbers alone will always lack context. You can absolutely verify where the numbers came from, weren't altered, and the math was done right. What you can't do is verify the numbers alone accurately portray what was happening in the real world, or what has happened in the real world since the snapshot of those numbers was taken. Numbers are extremely useful, but numbers alone mean absolutely nothing.

True, numbers alone mean nothing. And the surrounding context alone also doesnt paint a sufficient story. You need both, for without both you can't be effective. Unless said data/context is fabricated, trying to suppress either seems like a clear case of acting in bad faith.

Sure, I didn't mean to say data is unimportant or not needed at all. My point was just that data solves nothing without context (among other things, pike discernment and critical thinking).

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#624

Post by trashtester »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #601
trashtester wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And he can pardon them, without even specifying what he pardons them for. Indeed, this seems to be becoming the the norm. The US really needs to reign in the pardoning power. There are 3 areas in particular that need coverage (I'll cover pardons by the President, but the same might apply to Governors): 1) Most pardons come with a political cost, either for the president himself or his party. The main exception is jus…

Let him keep pardoning. Sometimes the best way to set new rules is to show the limits of abuse of that power in practice. I don't think even his packed SCOTUS would appreciate Trump overturning their judgment by pardoning recently convicted agents. They still are the people who are tasked with interpreting the constitution. Push the line too hard and they will push the line back to spite you.

In most cases, I would think the SCOTUS would point to Congress in a situation like this.

It's Congress' role to step up and provide checks and balances for a president that goes off the rails.

As long as a president has support by their fellow party members in congress to be immune against impeachment, I doubt the SCOTUS would step in.

Unless, perhaps, the actions of the president were to be bad enough to introduce imminent risk to the whole system of government. Like pardoning people who (provably) organize large scale voting fraud, etc.

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#625

Post by unethical_ban »

dang wrote: post #615
unethical_ban wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Could you please not perpetuate flamewars here? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. I'm not going to ban you because it doesn't look like you've been doing this routinely, but you broke the site guidelines badly in this thread, and it has been a problem in the past (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39598850 ) If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and…

I know I got baited. That's why my comments got shorter and shorter once I was accused of fundamental hatred. I don't start a fight, but I'll finish it. As always, I appreciate your moderation even if I'm not always on the right side of it.

I don't tend to back down when there is someone trying to destroy what this site is. Trolls are the worst.

Hey, once a year isn't so bad.

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#626

Post by hackyhacky »

_heimdall wrote: post #621
hackyhacky wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we're talking about the functioning of democracy, which necessarily requires a plurality of people, I don't see how anything other than group- or society-level action could possibly make any difference.

Oh we were a very individualistic nation for much of our history. That does come and go over the years, and like anything it has pros and cons, but it can be done. If group or societal solutions are the only viable option we might as well cut to the chase and go full socialist. I don't mean that derogatorily, if collectivism is the only solution when individual choices inevitably lead to bad outcomes why bother tryin…

I'm talking about public education. I don't know what you're on about.

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#627

Post by dredmorbius »

unethical_ban wrote: post #625
dang wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please not perpetuate flamewars here? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. I'm not going to ban you because it doesn't look like you've been doing this routinely, but you broke the site guidelines badly in this thread, and it has been a problem in the past (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39598850 ) If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and…

I know I got baited. That's why my comments got shorter and shorter once I was accused of fundamental hatred. I don't start a fight, but I'll finish it. As always, I appreciate your moderation even if I'm not always on the right side of it. I don't tend to back down when there is someone trying to destroy what this site is. Trolls are the worst. Hey, once a year isn't so bad.

Many fights are best finished by withdrawing.

(It's difficult, I know, and I struggle with that myself. HN's "collapse thread" feature (the [-] on the comment link) is useful should conscious effort prove frail.)

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#628

Post by _heimdall »

hackyhacky wrote: post #573
_heimdall wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a new problem unfortunately. Data and research during the pandemic response was being horribly mishandled, largely by the Democrats at the time. This isn't a one party or one person problem. It sure seems like a problem more correlated with our government structure and/or climate, or authority structures themselves.

> largely by the Democrats at the time. Who was president in 2020?

Was the pandemic limited to 2020?

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#629

Post by _heimdall »

hackyhacky wrote: post #626
_heimdall wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh we were a very individualistic nation for much of our history. That does come and go over the years, and like anything it has pros and cons, but it can be done. If group or societal solutions are the only viable option we might as well cut to the chase and go full socialist. I don't mean that derogatorily, if collectivism is the only solution when individual choices inevitably lead to bad outcomes why bother tryin…

I'm talking about public education. I don't know what you're on about.

This whole chain was you pushing back on the relative merit or feasibility of an individualist approach to this problem. You mentioned education very briefly a few posts up but that didn't seem to be the main point of that comment and definitely not of this back and forth.

Re: CDC data are disappearing

#630

Post by _heimdall »

marxisttemp wrote: post #503
_heimdall wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a new problem unfortunately. Data and research during the pandemic response was being horribly mishandled, largely by the Democrats at the time. This isn't a one party or one person problem. It sure seems like a problem more correlated with our government structure and/or climate, or authority structures themselves.

I’m sorry, I’m no fan of the dems but if you think Trump isn’t above and beyond when it comes to lying and twisting truth you’re either a shill or just ignorant

Oh he is bad about it, don't get me wrong. That doesn't excuse other politicians though, and attempting to weigh and compare the relative lying and truth twisting seems like an extremely difficult thing to do.

Bush Jr blatantly lied to the country and rallied us around a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people minimum. How do we weigh that with Trumps ridiculous lies?

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