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M4 Mac mini's efficiency

jeffgeerling.com

621–630 of 632 posts

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#621
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After buying one, I actually like it. I know exactly where it is, and can reach for it by feel more easily; I could never tell you whether the power button was on the left or right side of the old Mini/Studio without checking each time. It's also larger, more satisfying tactile/clicky, and concave compared to the old button (which was rounded into the outside curve, not particularly be satisfying to press). I think t…

Jobs and Ive had their head scratchers. Like the Magic Mouse with the bottom charging port, or the Cube with all its cables coming in from the bottom.

The Magic Mouse refresh was done way after Jobs death. The Cube had a very annoying design for ports indeed, but at least it was very easy to open/repair, with a handle specifically for it. But for sure it was a case of looks trumping everything, including practicality, unsurprisingly it didn't sell very well.

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#622
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried 8K video? How does each machine handle that?

I just arranged a selection of 4K H.264/H.265 clips in a 2x2 grid on a 8K timeline in DaVinci Resolve. Playback works well - up to 60fps. However, export to H.265 creates a lot of Swap. Rendering went with 15-18fps. All videos on a SMB network drive but the GPU was the bottleneck for rendering. Swap was even around 24GB with 5 videos which I tested first. Using 4x4K it went 9 GB before stabilizing at around 2GB. No e…

thanks for checking! I think I'll get the M4 Pro and max out the RAM. I don't have the budget for whatever the future M4 Studio would look like, so this seems like a nice sweet spot.

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#623
post #395
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs and Ive had their head scratchers. Like the Magic Mouse with the bottom charging port, or the Cube with all its cables coming in from the bottom.

The GP's same argument also applies to the Magic Mouse, as it happens: > It's a way of signaling how the product should be used. In the Magic Mouse's case, it came out just on the cusp of wireless mice becoming "a thing." Most people, if they were allowed , would have just left the mouse tethered to a computer by its charging cable at all times, since that's what they were used to. But Apple thought you'd be happier…

There is one thing where you are right: Apple doesn't care much about mouses and is all in with trackpads. But this also completely disproves your theory about why the charging port is on the bottom of the Magic Mouse. Indeed, both the Magic Trackpad and the Magic Keyboard have charging ports on their back, making it very easy to use them wired, which many people do. If Apple was so set on forcing people to use their wireless peripherals without the wire, you would find the port on the bottom too. Yes, it would be very dumb and this is exactly what it is with the Magic Mouse.

The only difference is that the Magic Mouse was first designed with a door for swappable batteries and when they did the refresh and just put a port in its place with no further amelioration. Both the keyboard and trackpad shape changed (became thinner because there was no need for round batteries storage anymore) but they didn't change the mouse.

We can make all kinds of theories about why but the simple answer is that they don't care and they feel like their mouse looks nice and don't want to invest in changing the design. This is pretty much all there is to it, lots of apathy towards customers and a general lack of care, otherwise they could have made some other upgrades (like the sensor) a long time ago, without having to touch this stupid charging port.

And this is why they get a lot of shit for it and it's well deserved, if Apple is too lazy to make a mouse, then they shouldn't make one, especially not one that cost a 100.

All the apologetic theories about teaching people to use wireless stuff are so nonsense its really crazy that people can believe that.

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#624
post #623
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP's same argument also applies to the Magic Mouse, as it happens: > It's a way of signaling how the product should be used. In the Magic Mouse's case, it came out just on the cusp of wireless mice becoming "a thing." Most people, if they were allowed , would have just left the mouse tethered to a computer by its charging cable at all times, since that's what they were used to. But Apple thought you'd be happier…

There is one thing where you are right: Apple doesn't care much about mouses and is all in with trackpads. But this also completely disproves your theory about why the charging port is on the bottom of the Magic Mouse. Indeed, both the Magic Trackpad and the Magic Keyboard have charging ports on their back, making it very easy to use them wired, which many people do. If Apple was so set on forcing people to use their…

You might be right, but I'm not sure the timeline lines up.

The Magic Trackpad didn't exist when the Magic Mouse 1 (the one with AA batteries) was designed. So they definitely cared about the design of the Magic Mouse at that time.

The Magic Mouse 2 (the one with that added the bottom charging port) was released on the same day as the Magic Trackpad 2, and the Magic Keyboard 1. The three devices were almost certainly designed together, likely by the same industrial designer. And, because the Magic Keyboard was a ground-up design at the time, this would have been one of the more-senior designers doing a complete design cycle, aiming to create a coherent "peripheral brand image" to suit the marketing of a new generation of Macs.

If that designer chose to do very little to the (external) design of the Magic Mouse 1 to update it to the Magic Mouse 2, that might be because they were taking operational-logistics concerns into account, e.g. a stock of existing aluminum housings + multitouch-digitizer-laminated plastic covers. But, more likely in my opinion, they just thought that the IXD of the Magic Mouse 1 already achieved its goals (in Apple's conception, not necessarily the consumer's!), and already aligned with the brand image they wanted for the Magic Trackpad 2 and Magic Keyboard 1.

Remember that the Magic Mouse is a mouse. You need to grip it and move it, and it needs to have a certain amount of inertia so that bumping it doesn't shoot it off your table. So it needs to have a certain weight and a certain height.

I have a strong suspicion that, back when developing the MM1, Apple's design team invested into a design-prototyping human-factors-analysis phase, to find an optimal height and weight (and center of gravity!) for the Magic Mouse, so that it would "feel good in the hand" and hit some optimum between "gliding and clicking well as a mouse" and "resisting running away from you when used as a multitouch surface."

If I recall consumer reviews at the time, the MM1 was taken as a step-change in the "prioritization of function over form" of Apple's mice. Before the MM1, Apple's last ergonomically-satisfying mouse had been the Apple Desktop Mouse II back in 1992! In the late 90s/early 2000s — that's the iMac "puck mouse" and Apple Pro Mouse era — many people had been just tossing out the mouse their Macs came with, and buying PC mice instead!

Since the MM1's (very likely) evidence-based design had been so successful, the designer of the MM2 probably wanted to reuse the "backed by the research" numbers the MM1 had arrived at. As long as human hands are human hands, those will still be the right numbers (at least when viewed through the lens of Apple's internal IXD-culture biases.)

There are several ways the MM2's designer could have aimed to hit these same numbers — but the simplest way to do it (provided the old design still "fit" in the new line-up) would be to keep the external form-factor the same (thus keeping the height and grip the same), and add just enough lithium-ion capacity inside the device, in just the right place, to hit the same weight and center of gravity that the MM1 had.

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> both the Magic Trackpad and the Magic Keyboard have charging ports on their back, making it very easy to use them wired, which many people do

The Magic Keyboard and Magic Trackpad don't need to move. They're supposed to stay where they are, unless you pick them up. So they can maximize thinness and lightness (which looks "sexy", and is better for supply-side materials and shipping costs), while staying in place by just having really grippy feet (made of the most dust-collecting silicone I've ever seen on a device.)

Apple doesn't care if you leave the Magic Trackpad or Magic Keyboard plugged in all the time, because they're stationary. There's no User Experience "magic" you get by unplugging them. Unplugging them is convenient in certain limited-space environments, and de-clutters your desk, and looks good in product photos — but it doesn't make using them better.

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ETA: I looked into what actually changed between the MM1 and MM2. You might be surprised!

Keeping the same external form-factor, doesn't mean that the MM2 was just "the MM1 with a lithium cell where the batteries had been."

Here are fully-disassembled images of the MM1 and MM2, c/o iFixit:

• MM1: https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/TcIwDRPZ4WfdvjJF.hug...

• MM2: https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/ovXNR4Y3aAUYXGNj.hug...

So, for starters, there was clearly a complete internal redesign and rework of the board. Different ICs, different layout — even a different sensor, in a different package, from a different vendor, with different optics.

Also take notice of how the charge controller is integrated onto the MM2's mainboard. There are companies that have transitioned pre-manufactured devices to a rechargeable rev, by "just slapping a charging port in where the battery door had been" — and those companies tend to stick the charge controller and charge connector together to form a little floating board, and run flying leads from that floating board to the mainboard in one direction, and to the battery cells in another, so that the whole charging assembly together "presents as batteries" to the mainboard, whether it's being charged or not. This was not that kind of hackjob.

And actually, the external design changed in several subtle ways, too. Note the differently-designed runners that interface into the housing in a different way, for example. Note that even the digitizer connection to the underside of the touch surface is different — which probably implies a different digitizer, and means that they couldn't reuse the existing acrylic top housings (that they almost certainly get shipped to them with digitizers already laminated in.)

In other words: the MM2 didn't reuse anything! These are entirely different parts, that just happen to look the same on the outside.

There would have thus been no parts-reuse advantage in putting the charging port where they did. It was a "free choice" — they could have put it anywhere. They were milling out new, different aluminum bottom housings (that have more material than before, so they can't just be reworks of the previous rev's bottom housing) — there was nothing stopping the designer from putting a little hole in that bottom housing on the front side!

(Nothing, that is, other than the designer's likely belief that the MM1 form factor — where the bottom housing of the mouse tapers thinner at the front and back so that the top housing basically meets the mousing surface — was some kind of Good, Evidence-Backed Ergonomics, that they would be sacrificing if they made the whole mouse body a few mm taller to give a front-side port somewhere to extrude from. I repeat what I said before: this was an ideals-driven choice, not laziness.)

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My old mini ran just fine only accessing it over remote desktop. I assume the new ones will act the same.

Did your old mini have FileVault enabled?

I don’t think so. It was a x86 that I upgraded to 16gb ram and 1 tb hd.

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#626
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Given millions of things that are perfect it takes one of them for HN to lose its mind, power button happened to be it this time, Cook didn't decide that. 2. How often do people exactly have to turn off and on a mac that consumes less than a pi for them to constantly be reaching out to that power button? 3. Standby, hibernate exist.

It's not like Tim Cook personally decided to put the button there, but saying over many years he's aligned the company to be one that would leave the button there rather than bite the cost of putting it somewhere more ergonomic is something I can buy into. Seems like a way to improve margins generation over generation, which is the kind of thing he's obsessed with. This is also the same Apple that made the G4 Cube: t…

Yes that's it. Jobs's annoyances were always about achieving a better product, a higher level of refinement or something of the sort. It was mostly about, "it can be better this way" and he was very often right even though sometimes not.

On the other hand, with Cook, it's always about cost cutting and corner cutting and the likes. It feels cheap (especially considering the pricing and brand aspirations) but also primitive and unrefined.

Which is why their price escalation was unjustified, if you want to charge a lot you need to figure out a no compromise product and, in my opinion, they have not been there a lot recently...

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#627
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just arranged a selection of 4K H.264/H.265 clips in a 2x2 grid on a 8K timeline in DaVinci Resolve. Playback works well - up to 60fps. However, export to H.265 creates a lot of Swap. Rendering went with 15-18fps. All videos on a SMB network drive but the GPU was the bottleneck for rendering. Swap was even around 24GB with 5 videos which I tested first. Using 4x4K it went 9 GB before stabilizing at around 2GB. No e…

thanks for checking! I think I'll get the M4 Pro and max out the RAM. I don't have the budget for whatever the future M4 Studio would look like, so this seems like a nice sweet spot.

I had a few OFX plugins and maybe had the browser running which may have impacted RAM. Depending on how much RAM you can keep free and the amount of grading on that 8K video you may be OK with the 24GB of the M4 Pro base model but yeah - more is always better though with Apple it's painful to add more of anything .. on a budget.

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much RAM should a few browser tabs and a spreadsheet use? Spreadsheets and webpages were both invented at a time when computers had orders of magnitude less ram than they do today. And yet, Excel and Netscape navigator still worked fine. It seems to me that bigger computers have caused chrome to use more memory. If 16gb is considered to be a "bare minimum" for RAM, well, how much ram will all those programs use n…

> If 16gb is considered to be a "bare minimum" for RAM, well, how much ram will all those programs use next year? Or in 10 years? 16gb is the figure for the next 10 years. If you see yourself being content with 8gb of memory shared between your CPU and GPU in 2030, you must have a uniquely passive use-case. I remember when people said 4gb doesn't need to be the minimum for all Macbooks. Eventually MacOS started consu…

I'm not doubting that modern macos, chrome, firefox, spotify, etc are giant memory hogs.

My claim is that the developers should fix their shit, and stop making their laziness something for me to solve by buying more RAM.

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#629
post #609
post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These auto-generated comparison pages are not useful.

why not? Having the specs and benchmark results for both CPUs in a table gives a good overview. What advantage would it bring to manually write such comparison tables?

Specifically, I don’t like them because they show really vague percentages or “scores” where it’s very unclear what specific benchmarks are being used. The benchmark bars for things like single and multi-core performance don’t break down different applications and use cases or even say which benchmarks they are referring to.

This link in particular never goes deeper than Geekbench and has a bunch of comparisons to stuff that shouldn’t guide purchase decisions like:

Newer - released 1 year and 4 months later

More modern manufacturing process – 3 versus 6 nanometers

I much prefer the more in-depth tests that outlets like GamersNexus do, where CPUs are tested using multiple workflows and solutions. For example, you can test specific games and applications, test file compression and video encoding, test simulation speed on CPU-dependent simulation games, test clock speed behavior and throttling (does the CPU have jittery boost clocks or does it settle in to a consistent frequency).

Re: M4 Mac mini's efficiency

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All his tests are published here: https://github.com/geerlingguy/top500-benchmark?tab=readme-o... He does test some N100 machines. TL;DR: The M4 blows everything away, but isn't a general purpose machine. The N100 is slightly better than 50% of the power efficiency of the remainder. It's also slightly faster despite having less cores. Single core speed is looks to be twice the speed of ARM. An N100 box with 16GB of R…

I'm pondering the down votes. My current theory is they are over this: > The M4 blows everything away, but isn't a general purpose machine. Perhaps that upset Apple fans. My definition of "general purpose machine" is one that I can realistically write software for. I written operating systems (with a custom network and GUI stack) in the past. Doing that requires hardware that isn't locked down, and somewhat less obvi…

I’m sorry but in what universe is writing operating systems “general purpose?” That’s about the most niche computing task I can think of.
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