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Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

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Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#621

Post by selfmodruntime »

littlestymaar wrote: post #617
selfmodruntime wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. They are not living in "absolute misery". The highest germany court has established this in the past. German welfare is among the highest in the world. I also know this personally, I have lived on the past (even more strict) alternative to "Bürgergeld" for the first 18 years of my life. German welfare guarantees you food, an apartment for you and your children, public schooling, funding for school projects and…

I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV. Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard. You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable. If you never skipped meal because you could not af…

> Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard.

They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population. Put this into perspective. I've seen incredible poverty in this world. Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely.

> You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable

You don't know my situation. There were little sacrifices to be had. I also never said it was always comfortable. But it was dignified and we had everything we needed. There was not a single day where we had to skip meals, and I remember filling out the forms for school trips myself. To live always comfortable is not the point of welfare.

> I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV.

Seeing as you're swatting away my opinions and personal experience as propaganda, I don't think there is any way to get a fruitful discussion out of this. I don't think we should lower welfare benefits. I just think we're being nationally out of touch with reality.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#622

Post by nkmnz »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #606
neuronic wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here, our country is broken beyond recognition due to 40 years of terrible political decisions independent of party or political side . I cannot even name one thing that is not broken beyond belief. The conservative government has added the debt ceiling to our Constitution requiring a 2/3 vote to change it, thereby making investments like the Inflation Reduction Act in the US utterly impossible. However, they…

Also German. > I cannot even name one thing that is not broken beyond belief. The conservative government has added the debt ceiling to our Constitution requiring a 2/3 vote to change it Good. You'd see a government without this restriction spend more money on pension benefits faster than you'd think possible. > thereby making investments like the Inflation Reduction Act in the US utterly impossible This is not true.…

This.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#623

Post by nkmnz »

constantcrying wrote: post #484
nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

>Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld. >but especially for those relying on government money... Yes, those are the real victims here. Who else could be victimized by working full time, so that other people d…

Your sarcasm is out of place. I criticise the scheme because it’s not sustainable, not even for those that get the handouts. It’s not even solving the supposed problem. This is important with regard to the posted article, because that effect cannot be observed on small scale experiments that do not restrict labor supply on a societal scale.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#624

Post by nkmnz »

pydry wrote: post #556
constantcrying wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If this was a genuine concern there wouldn't be so many people skimming off the top of every nation on the planet. We're surrounded by parasites and you're picking on people running calorie deficits for some reason. Wrong. The only way to go hungry here in Germany is by choice. The people "skimming off the top" are not the ones paying millions upon millions in taxes. It is those who are to lazy to work, because they…

>get enough Bürgergeld, that actually working would lower their income. This very rarely ever happens by accident. It's a useful policy hack for people "who pay millions in taxes" because it disincentivizes their workers from pushing for a pay raise. This way they can leech more of the surplus value of their labor.

This is a conspiracy theory. There is a labor shortage already, so the people “who pay millions in taxes” would be able to earn much more money if they could find more motivated workers.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#625

Post by nkmnz »

constantcrying wrote: post #518
wpguy wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the problem with these programs. You will never get full buy in from the population unless EVERYONE benefits from it. Just look at social security and Medicare if you go to cut that it is political suicide.

There is no system where everyone benefits from redistribution. It is literally impossible to imagine a system where everyone benefits, unless you have a free energy machine of course.

Society and economies aren’t zero-sum games. It usually costs less to prevent someone from robbing you by giving them some welfare money - boom, value created out of nothing and everyone is better off ;-)

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#626

Post by nkmnz »

littlestymaar wrote: post #497
nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

I know you really want to believe it, but this is bs: look at inflation statistics in Europe and you'll see that the effect you're imaging doesn't exist. There's no excess inflation in Germany compared to everywhere else in the EU. Also Bürgergeld is $500 a month for an adult, which is very far from "You can easily live from the Bürgergeld ". Survive maybe but definitely not "easily live". The labor market issues in…

500$?? You’re either uninformed, lying, or really bad at math:

- 561€ cash hand out alone amount to 610$ already

- rent and heating are paid in full, which can be up to another 500€ in the city where I live

- health insurance is free which would otherwise cost ~300€ as a private insurance

Thus, Bürgergeld is closer to 1500$ or 3x your phantasy amount.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#627

Post by nkmnz »

onli wrote: post #562
selfmodruntime wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also Bürgergeld is $500 a month for an adult, which is very far from "You can easily live from the Bürgergeld". Survive maybe but definitely not "easily live". You're leaving out a ton of information there. The 500 Euros is after everything else has been paid for. There's also lots of benefits like Kindergeld, money for each child you have.

That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. There is ceiling that is unreachably low. Heating is also not included,so in no way is everything else covered. To others: This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this. Don't believe a single bit, they do not describe the state of the country nor how the policies work. It is a common wave of propaganda th…

Your statements are not true. Heating is fully covered and Bürgergeld pays way more for rent than the average student can afford. Maybe it’s different in your city, but in mine, Jobcenter is very generous when it comes to paying rent.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#628

Post by nkmnz »

onli wrote: post #608
selfmodruntime wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you ge…

For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted pe…

If these sanctions did stay in place… then why is chancellor Scholz (SPD) currently rallying to reintroduce them?[0] of course, he’s a populist, but that doesn’t make your statement true.

[0] https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/scholz-so...

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#629

Post by ssl-3 »

literallycancer wrote: post #548
ssl-3 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are indeed plenty of people who can't or won't work. These people exist today, with or without UBI. And they will exist tomorrow, with or without UBI. And so what? These people are still human beings. They still deserve life: If dogs deserve no-kill shelters[1] then humans also deserve a life. They deserve a chance to live out their days, and to tell stories to their (perhaps prolific) kids and grandkids (who a…

Why do you think dogs deserve no kill shelters? Euthanizing stray dogs and other critters in urban areas is quite common throughout the world and most definitely a superior choice if you have a limited budget and would need to cut services for humans instead.

It's multifaceted.

If no-kill shelters ever make sense (and some people must think they do, as these are things that do exist), then no-kill humanitarian efforts also must make sense. I find this to be self-evident because I think that humans are more important than domestic animals are.

UBI directly helps with the latter; UBI helps people avoid death.

UBI also indirectly helps with the former: By reducing the burden of taking care of pets when the bottom starts to fall out on folks' lives for whatever reason that happens, the need for dog shelters of any sort is also reduced.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#630

Post by selfmodruntime »

nkmnz wrote: post #627
onli wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. There is ceiling that is unreachably low. Heating is also not included,so in no way is everything else covered. To others: This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this. Don't believe a single bit, they do not describe the state of the country nor how the policies work. It is a common wave of propaganda th…

Your statements are not true. Heating is fully covered and Bürgergeld pays way more for rent than the average student can afford. Maybe it’s different in your city, but in mine, Jobcenter is very generous when it comes to paying rent.

I have no idea why the poster above is outright lying. You can disprove their claims in a minute by looking at the official page of the Arbeitsamt.
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