Live data from Hacker News

Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

cointelegraph.com

621–630 of 1001 posts

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, a bitcoin wallet can't be seized by fiat by any 3-letter agency of any country. A fair amount of it is speculative, but unlike a pure-speculative ponzi scheme it's rooted in some appreciation of intrinsic value.

I'm confused by this comment. What do you mean "seized by fiat"? Custodial wallets can and have been seized by government agencies. Cold wallet storage devices can and have been seized. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, only imputed value.

Nobody can order the bitcoin network to freeze assets of Johnny Wanted the way they can order banks and other financial institutions. Nobody can stop you getting paid even for non-criminal activities the way Mastercard/Visa do.

If you lose or surrender you private key - fair enough, but that's not the same.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please trust me when I say that I do not give a damn about the price of bitcoin. What I care about is stopping runaway energy consumption, and from that perspective proof-of-work is the biggest existential threat to humanity since the atom bomb. Mate, this is ridiculous. Global energy usage was 179000 Twh (terawatt hours) in 2022. ( https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption ) Bitcoin energy usage was…

> Bitcoin energy usage accounted for 0.11% of global energy usage and you think it is the biggest threat to humanity since the A-Bomb? Bitcoin is entirely irrelevant to the grand scheme of things re climate emissions. GP already explained why he thinks that and you did not spend a word addressing that. Here is what GP said: > The reason that bitcoin's energy usage is a philosophical nightmare is because it's a system…

I didn't address that point because it is conceptually and factually incorrect. But I will breakdown why for your benefit:

> The reason that bitcoin's energy usage is a philosophical nightmare is because it's a system where energy consumption is the product.

False. The "Product" is a permissionless global peer to peer financial network using a (relatively) non-depreciating commodity. Energy consumption is a side-effect of providing this product/service. I'm sure if you thought about it for a bit you would have to agree here. Noone is mining bitcoin for the sake of it, they are mining it for profit and the only reason bitcoin has value is other attributes of the network/commodity itself. So not a good start from OP.

> As opposed to industries which are "merely" energy-intensive, let's take aluminum refining for example, spending more energy to refine aluminum does not create more demand for aluminum, but spending more energy on bitcoin increases the price of bitcoin, which induces more demand, which increases the price, which incentivizes mining, which costs more energy, and so on in a vicious cycle.

This is factually incorrect and easy to see why. Here is a link to an overlapping chart showing the hashrate for bitcoin against the market cap (https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/hashrate-marketcap-btc....). You'll notice the lack of connection between the market cap (overall price) and the hashing rate. This is an empirical fact based on the data we have so op is wrong once again.

It is true that price increases do incentivise more mining but the price increases aren't DRIVEN by increases in the mining. Otherwise it would be possible for anyone anywhere to spin up bitcoin farms and make guaranteed profit because the price would rise to a level commensurate with the energy expended. It is the other values of the network (peer-to-peer permissionless decentralised finance with an eventually depreciating commodity) that drive the price. Those are being priced by the market currently and more and more people are deciding to store wealth in the Bitcoin network as opposed to the Fiat network or other assets like property/gold/etc because they feel it gives a better combination of:

1. Store of value (or possibility for profit)

2. Functionality

Bitcoin mining is very often not profitable if you don't have cheap energy or do it collectively which is why it is moves around so much to find cheap energy sources (often using the cheapest forms of energy available which is burn off/extra gen that has no otherwise in grid) and miners pool to take a portion of the gains from mining the next block and getting the bitcoin that come with it.

OP's view of Bitcoin and proof of work is a very slanted one at best, completely factually inaccurate at worst.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Bitcoin is designed to reward high energy consumption the opposite is true for the fiancial system, since lower energy costs would make the different processing entities earn higher margins. Thus, the financial system provides much more utility for the energy it consumes than bitcoin does.

Bitcoin rewards energy efficiency by design, which is why the vast majority of bitcoin mining uses excess fully renewable energy.

Yeah, like running old coal powered plants to power mining facilities[1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-m...

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#624
post #606

So bitcoin became something like money and stocks, just a number in a SQL database? And we can now finally make bitcoins out of thin air? How long before the amount of bitcoins traded by hedge funds will be larger than the amount of bitcoins that exist in the actual bitcoin network?

No there is a hard limit of 21m Bitcoins. You can't just "print more". Yes it's possible to trade "paper bitcoins" but if you don't own the underlying asset you are always at risk of being found out and not being able to cover the amount.

So the only difference between Bitcoin and stocks in 2024 is that stocks are backed by an actual underlying company. Nice.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#625
post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popularity of these scammy exchanges despite the massive red flags shows that this is actually what customers want. They don't want the theoretical advantages of permissionless blockchains and private keys, they just want penny stocks that trade 24/7 and are called "crypto" because it sounds cool. So institutions will take advantage of that desire for convenience and work with regulators to turn "crypto" into jus…

> They don't want the theoretical advantages Surely only a fool would want advantages that were theoretical only?

The greater fool theory is the only mechanism for converting crypto to dollars, so this is a feature.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#626
post #584

I can't help thinking that Bitcoin ETFs could mark "Peak Bitcoin". When lots of people are trading it at their high street broker in their regular account, Bitcoin becomes just a number in a box - a crypto currency without crypto - with nothing underlying it.

" Nothing underlying it " is a pretty good description of crypto tokens in general.

Or fiat currency in general. Let's not pretend modern fiat is backed by something solid. The only thing backing it these days is the promise of our grandchildren & their grandchildren being good to pay back debt, eventually.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s hoping bitcoin goes to zero

Bitcoin didn’t go to zero with people buying it through shady exchanges operated out of tax havens, and you think Bitcoin will go to zero AFTER its available to every investor in the US through every finance app and is being sold by giant hedge funds?

cryptocurrencies are primarily a tool for grift, crime, other shady purposes. their existence is a net negative hence my hope bitcoin and with it the whole market for currencies to go to zero.

but what about cash you might ask? cash has always been used for everything of course both good and bad but transporting millions of some fiat currency in a briefcase is a lot harder than stealing some wallet with monkey jpegs or tokens worth 45k usd.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#628
post #531

My prediction is that Bitcoin will become fully institutionalized within twenty years, to the point that the “Bitcoin” held by investors are entirely disconnected from the theoretical blockchain. A similar thing happened with stocks. Not so long ago they used to be physical pieces of paper. You could trade shares peer-to-peer and even anonymously by handing over the share certificate to someone in person. For dividen…

I've got a newsflash for you... US IS NOT THE WORLD. Stocks (companies) are US based and Bitcoin isn't. So while you are not entirely wrong, you missed the most important difference between stocks and Bitcoin in your comparison.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#629

So bitcoin became something like money and stocks, just a number in a SQL database? And we can now finally make bitcoins out of thin air? How long before the amount of bitcoins traded by hedge funds will be larger than the amount of bitcoins that exist in the actual bitcoin network?

I'm not a fan of crypto as an investment, but I have no problem with this.

If you are investing with in multiple ETFs and are interested in investing,not owning, in BTC, this makes things simpler - you buy the ETF, the exchange buys the BTC.

If it reaches a point where everyone is just holding for returns, then it could be a timebomb until it all crashes. We could be there already.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#630
post #531

My prediction is that Bitcoin will become fully institutionalized within twenty years, to the point that the “Bitcoin” held by investors are entirely disconnected from the theoretical blockchain. A similar thing happened with stocks. Not so long ago they used to be physical pieces of paper. You could trade shares peer-to-peer and even anonymously by handing over the share certificate to someone in person. For dividen…

The difference is that they can never stop you custodying the bitcoin yourself.

Bitcoin won't become "quaint" - it will always sit there as the hardest money mankind has ever seen (and likely ever will). If they try and create tokens that don't represent bitcoin i.e. creating them out of thin air, then they will go down in value relative to bitcoin, just as we are seeing with fiat currencies and people will move their wealth back into bitcoin.

Decentralised exchanges like Bisq mean that people will always be able to get their hands on the real thing.

Post reply on HN