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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#621

Post by Tichy »

chc wrote: post #184
Tichy wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I meant is this: she quit programming because she was in sucking programming jobs. She should have looked for a non-sucking programming job. This is not so much different from what most men in programming jobs experience - being in a job that sucks, and actively having to look for a better one. Edit: maybe I can't relate because my tendency is to quit if I find myself in a job that I don't like. This has happene…

Your comment assumes there is a ready supply of programming jobs that do not suck in this way. I think the point people are trying to make is that there isn't.

No I don't assume that, I actually said most programming jobs suck. But the point is: either there are programming jobs that don't suck, then she could switch, or there aren't programming jobs that don't suck, then leaving programming might be the right idea.

Re: "Lighten up"

#622

Post by cookiecaper »

chernevik wrote: post #126
larrys wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Try to think about what you'd do if you were in the room with a team member who made a comment like that. I know what I'd do, and I don't think it is an industry norm yet." I don't think things like this are clear cut like you are saying. What if you were unemployed for 2 years and then got a new job? And for an entrepreneur? Say for some reason your company isn't doing well. You go and pitch a big account that coul…

First, you're discussing edge cases. If people step to the easy stuff a great deal of the problem goes away. Second, these responses needn't be binary, you can signal a lot of antipathy with body language and conversational subtext. When the commenter is just clueless -- and a lot of these people are just that -- the hint that they're out of line is often all it takes. I'm not saying settle for subtle when confrontat…

I doubt that "conversational subtext" was the "industry norm" that tptacek intended to advocate, though I do believe that it's not always appropriate to lay the smack down the second you think you hear something offensive.

Re: "Lighten up"

#623

Post by Tichy »

hythloday wrote: post #174
Tichy wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I meant is this: she quit programming because she was in sucking programming jobs. She should have looked for a non-sucking programming job. This is not so much different from what most men in programming jobs experience - being in a job that sucks, and actively having to look for a better one. Edit: maybe I can't relate because my tendency is to quit if I find myself in a job that I don't like. This has happene…

That's not so different from what most men in programming jobs experience Tell me, when was the last time someone sat next to you because "you were wearing tight trousers and they hoped they could see your junk"? How many men do you think experience that at work? Would you be OK with them telling you to lighten up if you took exception to it?

I am sorry that she has to be a woman (which is not even true strictly speaking, sex changes are possible). What I meant is that these problems are probably independent from the job. By ascribing the problems to "being a woman", she misses the thought that she could switch to a job where people don't treat her like that.

Nobody wants to see men's junk, but there are enough other ways that jobs can suck for men and women alike.

Re: "Lighten up"

#624

Post by gurkendoktor »

Cushman wrote: post #371
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? Of course I'm not sure . But when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Is it for comfort? Is it because they couldn't afford the other 30% of the shirt? Or is it because that's proven to be very effective at gaining male attention? I wore them for me, not for anyone else. This makes no sense. In a post-apocolyptic world where you're the on…

> Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Seriously, stop right there. Read what you just wrote. You're comparing a professional developer who chose to dress comfortably to women chosen for sex appeal by a restaurant which is only a step away from a strip club. There is something seriously wrong with the way you are approaching this issue. To answer your last question-- I'm a straight guy, and no, I w…

> I wouldn't find it sexually arousing if a co-worker came in to work topless.

Which is why I sometimes wish for a nudist society, exposing clothes can be much more distracting than none at all.

> Probably because I'm not fifteen, and I've seen boobs before.

I'm neither fifteen nor in dire need of breasts, and a mini skirt in summer can still be enough to keep me from thinking straight (I won't comment on it though). Some of us can't be fixed, looking down on me won't help.

I actually agree with both of you, you simply sound as if you had different women in mind all the time. There are girls in all environments that dress up with intentions. It sucks, they cause prejudice, but the OP really doesn't sound like it.

Re: "Lighten up"

#625

Post by Tichy »

hythloday wrote: post #324
Tichy wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a supplement to those posts, I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly (and women with low cut dresses especially). I mean it seems possible that the "I know where I'm sitting" guy was simply crap at giving compliments, rather than a sexist jerk. Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt wi…

I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly Like you would talk to men. Simple.

Somebody has to make a move eventually, though, or else no sex, no kids and mankind would die out. I agree the work place does not seem the best starting point, but in the real world it turns out to be (see other posts, 18% of committed couples met at work).

Re: "Lighten up"

#626

Post by cookiecaper »

mhartl wrote: post #137

It appears that virtually all comments expressing even mild criticism of the OP are being downvoted with a vengeance. Groupthink is alive and well here on HN. If you want to know what a member of the Thought Police looks like, find a mirror.

Indeed. This thread possessed me to register "abovethecirclejerk.com", which I one day hope to use in a meaningful way.

Re: "Lighten up"

#627

Post by olliesaunders »

ErrantX wrote: post #619
gurkendoktor wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. That is only the second thing that came to my mind. The other "danger" is being the only guy to act like that, then looking like a desperate "white knight" to the brogrammer crowd. Which sucks, because these exist and can be terribly creep…

You have to be careful how you do it as well. Because I offered to do a task like that (it wasn't note taking, I think it was making tea) saying something like [names changed] "Chris, I'm not sure why Amy is always asked to make the tea! I'll happily do it". Which I thought was politely volunteering whilst also publicly raising my bosses problematic behaviour - an educational experience. I got glowering dagger stares…

Amy shouldn’t be blaming herself for being the victim of sexist behavior. You could have tried to convince her of that. Even though you didn’t, you weren’t an idiot here. Aside from her internal negative reaction, the situation was actually improved.

Re: "Lighten up"

#628

Post by VonLipwig »

It's all down to ignorance really isn't it. Isolated incidents by themselves aren't really a big deal. Idiots are everywhere. Sometimes people just don't think before speaking.

Sometimes the odd jibe is actually amusing. Of course when the jibe has been heard a hundred times before it never is.

I have a stutter and the amount of crap I have had over the years is rediculous. It isn't people taking the piss, I am used to that. Its people being 'kind'. People assuming I cannot do something or wouldn't want to do something on account of my speech. People being 'protective' or finishing sentences...

The outride rudeness of people is easy to confront and challenge. It is the subtle stuff which is very difficult to deal with. Often people genuinely do not understand that they have done something wrong. They were just asking someone to take notes and you have become the defacto note taker... whats wrong with that?

I have always thought the best thing to do is stand your ground but if you do that every time you get a reputation of being a stickler and being less approachable. The trouble is finding the right balance between letting the odd thing slide without just leaving yourself open to taking crap.

I feel for Katie and think it is a shame that she has been effectively forced out doing she something she enjoys by the ignorance of others.

Re: "Lighten up"

#629

Post by hythloday »

nickolai wrote: post #574
burgerbrain wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way in hell. HR would slaughter me.

They may consider torturing you first. "Oh come on, my grandma/dog/goldfish would write better code!!!" This would be a totally acceptable jab among guys, yet saying this to a female coworker would immediately be misinterpreted as "woman are bad at coding" promptly followed by the full wrath of the HR gender equality team.

Well, my advice stands, though if you're actively working to undermine your male colleague's confidence in their ability you might consider changing that. But if you insist on treating male and female colleagues differently then you spend your entire day saying to women, "you don't belong here and you never will". If you're comfortable with that and your manager's comfortable with that, please give me the name of your company so I can avoid it.

Re: "Lighten up"

#630

Post by olliesaunders »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #583
mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

> Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. That is only the second thing that came to my mind. The other "danger" is being the only guy to act like that, then looking like a desperate "white knight" to the brogrammer crowd. Which sucks, because these exist and can be terribly creep…

Is this not less about appearing to be a desperate white knight and more about appearing to put a woman before the guys and, in doing so, betraying your male friends.
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