Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#621

Post by judge2020 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

birdboy2000 wrote: post #531

Y-bar wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hosting providers MUST be forced to provide a platform for everyone and anyone against the will of the provider. It SHALL NOT matter how many people their customers brag about driving to suicide. Nor should the hosting provider take into consideration harassment campaigns orchestrated by users of their platforms. -- Stallman, probably? /endsarcasm

I want content-neutral infrastructure. KF are scum and much of what they do should be illegal, but I want those decisions made in a court of law where they can defend themselves, not by whoever got in the ear of the right tech CEO. Platforms aren't people and shouldn't have rights.

And yet the courts are inadequate about protecting small-scale, individual rights. KF does targeted harassment, not large-scale terrorism, so agencies don't have much incentive to dedicate a disproportionate amount of resources on taking them offline.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#622

Post by dmatech » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #402

_-david-_ wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if another site that you consider completely legitimate can't be hosted just because others think it is not acceptable? Maybe your views are currently acceptable, but will they be in 5, 10, 20 years?

When was the last time a site got taken down because "others think it is not acceptable"? Please, name a single one. There's a difference between people simply "not liking" a site, and people using extremely well-established principles of ethical concepts and human rights (which have been refined over centuries) to decide what content is violating the "laws", as we call them, which have been generally agreed upon in…

The most recent one was probably Parler. Usually deplatforming is due to a moral panic involving a massively exaggerated risk. All sites probably violate the AUP or TOS if you look closely enough. But during the panic, you can't see that the risk is tiny in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#623

Post by TechSquidTV » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

I dont understand this post, it seems so backwards. Are we upset that a social harm has been deplatformed by a private company by simply choosing to not serve them? No one has prevented Kiwifarms from being on the internet, in fact that isn't even really possible.

Free speech is working as intended. There is legally nothing wrong with saying what you want on the internet, but that doesn't mean everyone else needs to listen to you or agree with you.

If Kiwifarms is worried about free speech, they can stand on a milk crate and hand out free newspapers, completely legally.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#624

Post by phantom_of_cato » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #607

phantom_of_cato wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m continually surprised that Facebook, Twitter, and the rest dont simply create a web interface for law enforcement that allows them to delete (or more likely make invisible) content they want to censor. In the US, we have the First Amendment, which prohibits government censorship. Of course, the government still sometimes uses political pressure to censor things, but there's a need to keep a semblance of rule of…

Actually, if Twitter et al. want to provide the tools to block arbitrary content, they can do that just fine - companies can speak with the police and follow their wishes regardless of the first amendment because Twitter's own protected speech allows them to block any content for any reason, whether that be "it violated our content on harassment" or "the police don't like it and we're voluntarily following their wish…

> companies can speak with the police and follow their wishes regardless of the first amendment because Twitter's own protected speech allows them to block any content for any reason, whether that be "it violated our content on harassment" or "the police don't like it and we're voluntarily following their wishes".

Even if that wasn't against the First Amendment (which is a more complicated issue [1]), that wouldn't fly politically in the US. The side which likes law enforcement also currently puts emphasis on free speech, and the side which doesn't like the police wouldn't want them to be in charge of censorship.

I think a company doing that would make everyone their enemy, and generate a lot of bad PR.

[1]: For example, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#625

Post by ALittleLight » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

favorited wrote: post #597

ALittleLight wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that were true, and I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased, it's a criminal or civil matter. If people on that forum committed a crime, let them face the legal penalties. Why should the website be made persona non grata by Internet companies? How many more are dead from activities on Facebook, Instagram, etc? Why is it that big business…

> I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased Near literally said he was committing suicide due to the abuse from Kiwi Farms. If you're doubtful, it's because you're willfully ignorant. https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448

Not even the tweet you linked says this. The person says they have been depressed and mocked their entire life and that they have tried therapy and medication and that it did not work. That seems much more like a depressed person driven to suicide than a forum being responsible for responsible for their death.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#626

Post by Febra33 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

Claude_Shannon wrote: post #424

I am really not surprised. They already bullied someone to death. https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/o90ats/near_the_emul...

Kiwi Farms is a cesspool and I'm glad it got booted off. We need stronger protections and laws against such heinous forms of organised harassment that ends up killing people.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#627

Post by OrangeMonkey » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Careful - this group _IS_ the arsonist who are caring torches. Hacker news is not the place to rail against this hypocrisy unless you are fully anon. One target looks a lot like the other when you have a 'cause' you are fighting for.

And this is not @dang or other moderators fault. Its the changing times and the changing opinions of the user base.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#628

Post by MichaelCollins » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:57 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #362

hecatoncheires wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoop tee doo. I've seen dozens of livestreamed murders on Instagram Live and Facebook Live. Reddit has /r/chiraqology where there are hundreds of videos of gang bangers and drill rappers beefing with each other and shooting at each other, and commenters celebrate the lifestyle and keep detailed ontologies of it all. Nobody is talking about nuking any of these platforms from existence just because of some isolated il…

The Chiraqology stuff is wild. People threaten each other on YouTube and then follow through with murder! The only reason it’s not banned is because nobody with power cares what happens to impoverished black kids in Chicago unless they can make money from it.

I doubt that banning the subreddit would stop the violence, all that would do is sweep the problem under the rug where it's easier for people in power to ignore.

The solutions put forth by the elected officials of Chicago and Illinois seem to fall into two general strategies; providing funding for anti-violence programs in Chicago, and lobbying for DOA legislation in Washington. Those outreach programs, such as Chicago CRED, READI Chicago and Metropolitan Peace Initiatives, have social science studies backing up their efficacy, but say they need more money to have a greater impact (Chicago's 2021 budget was $12.8 billion, with $16.5 million allocated to violence prevention.) They're very clear about needing more money to hire more social workers, but I can't find any statements from these organizations about the need for moderating reddit and youtube.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#629

Post by Febra33 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:57 PM UTC

bioemerl wrote: post #612

Febra33 wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument looks like blatant self victimisation. Kiwi Farms is involved in the suicides and endangerement of multiple people. I really don't see the coherence in your arguments here.

If they are doing something criminal, let the courts set them out with an established procedure and a a group of informed jurors instead of mob rule.

There's no mob rule. A private company decided to stop servicing that filth because it would hurt their profits. There's nothing freer than this.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#630

Post by logicalmonster » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:57 PM UTC

spurgelaurels wrote: post #420

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. Hate and harm are not covered under free speech.

> This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site.

I'm saying the following comment without knowing much about Kiwifarms and the back and forth drama about it other than some of the surface-level accusations. If people there were engaging in false swatting or other crimes, sure throw the book at those individuals. That's reprehensible behavior, and should be treated about as harshly as attempted murder IMO.

But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes? It's almost impossible to get an unbiased accounting of what actually happened there, and there's no way for an outsider to research this after the fact with the site down. I can't just trust a big corporation's word on what really happened here.

Additionally, who really committed crimes? The level of drama around what happened there seemed personal and insane from the little I saw about it. If you were an unhinged person who was willing to take a "the ends justify the means" to "win", you'd probably be willing to create fake accounts on that site and engage in illegal activity to try and get a site shut down that you hated. I have no idea if this is the case, but it's hard to rule out anything when it comes to the level of personal drama that seemed to be going on there.

> Hate and harm are not covered under free speech.

Organizing harm against others probably isn't considered free speech by most legal systems or philosophers, but an expression of hate in and of itself is absolutely covered under free speech.