Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

621–630 of 817 posts

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#621

Post by quonn »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #107
TekMol wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those really making a dent? What percentage of Lisbons apartments stay empty? What percentage is used for short duration rental? I would think only a small one-digit percentage?

There are tons (like, really many) of empty, closed rotting buildings in Lisbon. My assumption is the owners are waiting for prices to increase or simply demanding unreasonably inflated prices until they find a buyer. I'd like to know the reasons for it. Anyway, whole blocks are empty. Heck, there is a large empty building directly next to the German embassy (and, ironically, part of the German embassy is also abando…

Even more building were rotting before Portugal liberalized the market, because nobody would or could pay for renovations.

The truth is that real estate is merely a reflection of wealth. Some of that wealth is earned by hard work that others are not willing to put in while other wealth is just inherited and some people work hard and smart and still stay relatively poor.

Therefore we shouldn‘t judge so easily based on what someone has and go back to asking how it came about.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#622

Post by ephbit »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #373
ephbit wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Portugal should simply tear down all the old mouldy buildings of Lisbon and replace them with shiny skyscrapers, so each and every Portuguese can have their very own flat in Lisbon. Or if they're crazy enough to want to keep these old buildings they could just build all the skycrapers in the park surrounding peak Monsanto, easy. /s

The purpose of housing is to house people. Historical buildings are nice, but for apartment blocks at least, yes, the priority has to be actually housing people. You can always require historical-looking facades if looks are a concern.

> You can always require historical-looking facades if looks are a concern.

I assume you have actually seen the inside of old buildings with your own eyes.

In no way is the look & feel of the inside of an old building comparable to a modern one.

Yes, old buildings sure have downsides. But pretending nobody looses anything when you only keep historical (or even just historical looking) facades is eyewash.

I bet there are ways for the Portuguese Gvt to encourage renovation of all the dilapidated old style buildings instead of encouraging speculators to wait for them to collapse so they can build new and cheap and with loosing every bit of charm a building can have.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#623

Post by TheCapeGreek »

bennysomething wrote: post #589
jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

There was a post on hacker news a while back about a study in Finland showing that it doesn't matter if the new builds are "luxury", they increase so supply which will always eventually stop/slow/reverse price increases. This actually makes sense in terms of supply and demand but more interestingly it's because people tend to "upgrade" when they move this then frees up space at the lower end of the market.

The argument I've heard in South Africa for why luxury builds are the only things being built is that they're the only things that are profitable. After time and maintenance, ideally the luxury aspect falls away and it becomes affordable for the masses.

Same idea as buying a car - most people won't buy brand new because of the cost.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#624

Post by mmarq »

tumetab1 wrote: post #118
TekMol wrote: post #7

I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. Fun fact: I - as a single - live in a way too big, luxurious and expensive apartment because of this. I rented it, when I was still working for the man and was making a killing. Now I live a much more modest 4-hour-workweek life. It would be better for me to move to an apartment half the…

> I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. That's one of the reasons why portuguese renting market is so bad. There were rent control policies for like 40 years. It has been phased out but the market still has the signs of its damages. There also other contributing policies and the policies change almost every two years. I'm on…

The fact that you can’t evict people at will and that you have to go through courts to seek damages (rather than robbing your tenant’s bank account), is a feature not a bug.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#625

Post by mmarq »

jbm wrote: post #514
stainforth wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So either we preference your 150000 euros (and of course interest and margin on top) or someone having a roof over their head, running water, and even the ability to stay in the same are and building community instead of moving each year due to capital seeking max gains.

This is an egregious misreading of the parent comment. Someone in a position of economic vulnerability isn't going to invest in housing to rent out if there is a non-insignificant chance of damage to the property. Moreover, this uncertainty has the perverse outcome of pushing the potential small landlord to use his funds to invest in something like a real estate investment fund - which will result in less local contr…

Are these 150K being used to build a new house or to buy an existing house?

I think it’s time the English speaking world realised that landlords are not providing a service, they are extracting a tax on people that don’t have 150K to pay a deposit.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#626

Post by klabb3 »

TMWNN wrote: post #575
alephnerd wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep! They also prefer suburban tract housing. Also in Ireland and UK in my experience (my coworkers in the London office all moved to Reading, MK, Newbury, etc once they started familes). Amsterdam as well after visiting another cousin in Amsteveel, and Aahrus and Espoo to meet a buddy of mine who went to Aarhus Universitet and started at Nokia

>(my coworkers in the London office all moved to Reading, MK, Newbury, etc once they started familes This goes back a long time. The stockbroker belt/home counties as where commuters into London live has been a thing for more than a century, since railways then automobiles made this practical. The attitude klabb3 mentioned of "Europeans don't want American suburbs" is, as I think he is realizing, nonsense. No matter…

> No matter where, no matter who, the majority of people prefer detached homes with lawns if they can afford them.

Eh. Yes, people want ponies. Suburbia does indeed optimize for this parameter, but they sacrifice almost every other. Single family houses with lawns is nothing new in Europe, but most of them are rural.

I'd still defend that for the vast majority of Europeans the attraction of American suburbia is very low. Most choose to live in apartments in dense cities that are most attractive near the center. "Walkable" is a term i first heard in the US, that is quite meaningless in Europe, for a reason.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#627

Post by keepquestioning »

gip wrote: post #610
keepquestioning wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to report them to YC

I'm not sure I want to do that, it's not my style. I just called the City and they sent a team to clean up the mess. But even if I reported them, I suspect YC leaders would be rather proud of these guys.

YC is definitely a "F you, I've got mine" type of community.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#628

Post by rgmerk »

Portuguese can't afford to live in Lisbon for two reasons:

1) it's a nice city with nicer weather than most of the places within convenient travel range 2) the economy is remarkably unproductive, leaving Portguese people poorer than, say, Estonians, let alone Germans:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#629

Post by ThePadawan »

dougmwne wrote: post #16

Sounds like the Portuguese government should start building flats as fast as possible. Other countries in the EU do it and it works.

Probably quite hard, seeing as all the Portuguese builders are over here in Switzerland (since they get paid very well compared to Portugal, but really badly compared for Switzerland) /hj.

(Probably similar for other EU countries with high relative purchasing power)

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#630

Post by bieh »

ahepp wrote: post #271
bieh wrote: post #138

I moved to Lisbon in 2020, and I've become increasingly aware of the impact that high-income remote-worker immigrants like me are having on the city, and other similar places. I've been thinking of building something to try and help: https://www.reddit.com/r/PortugalExpats/comments/vy0i5r/crit... It's proved... controversial! I'd be interested to get HNs take.

I think it puts a pretty negative framing on immigration, that it's something you have to buy an indulgence for. Maybe that's true. Being a well paid tech worker who might try the expat lifestyle someday, I'm pretty biased. But I also wonder what it might look like to frame things in a more positive light. Maybe that could be connecting immigrants to jobs making a productive impact in the local economy, or showcasing…

Hey, thanks for the reply! Yeah, absolutely -- with hindsight, the phrasing that I used was far too negative.

I suspect I need to go with something very carefully phrased around "helping give back", rather than "you're a terrible person, make recompense for your crimes!", haha.

Post reply on HN