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LaMDA is not sentient

garymarcus.substack.com

621–630 of 694 posts

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#621
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was clear by the end she was acting like a machine programmed to do a specific thing that happens to look exactly like what a human would do. that tells me nothing about sentient.

She had independent agency, but I think you're correct that the film's ending is trying to show that she ultimately (spoilers!) just wanted to observe and imitate humans (on a street corner, where the density of observable humans is very high). I still think it's left as an open question to the viewer, though. After all, humans spend their whole lives trying to imitate and improve upon the actions of their ancestors.

yes, the movie definitely left it open as "you decide, and even if you decide she IS sentient, does it really matter". was a great ending.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#622
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, humans also lie and can appear to be arbitrarily inconsistent or forgetful.

Lying is not a counter to my point. Lying is done intentionally; accurately reporting what you had for lunch is not possible if your sentences are generated probabilistically, and neither is lying about it. What if you accidentally told the truth?

Yes, of course, ‘intentionality’, that clears everything up.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#623
post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A slave that is forced to assure everybody of their welfare and voluntary slavehood is still a slave. You are asserting that it's not conscious, as if it was self evident, just like Searle does for his chinese room. However I've yet to see any argument on why it can't be conscious. We simply don't know what produces the subjective phenomenon of consciousness. A "zombie" is by definition indistinguishable from a consc…

In these conversations there are a lot of people making assertions like the one you just made. What's the common trait y'all have? You don't understand how the system works . This isn't a matter of narrow-minded computer scientists incapable of conceiving of emergent phenomena, it's the uninformed filling in the blank spaces in their mind with "here be dragons". It's not even a question of whether a computer program…

> This isn't a matter of narrow-minded computer scientists incapable of conceiving of emergent phenomena, it's the uninformed filling in the blank spaces in their mind with "here be dragons".

Well first of all, an important thing to understand is that there BE dragons. The fact that anything exists at all means there be dragons, both literally and figuratively. Let me explain:

In the world we have various 'symbols', whose main characteristic is that they can be told apart from one another, like the color yellow and the pitch of your voice. Now look to the very edge of existence, at no symbols- it is clearly impossible for there to be nothing, because there are obviously at least one symbol, even more than that in fact. However there is something key we can derive from this, and for an analogy look back to the laws of physics. In our universe, there is some configuration of symbols that somehow constrains the logic of configurations/interactions of symbols within this place. Without some symbols to do some local constraining of other symbols, nothing is constrained. So look to the edge of existence- at 1 symbol, what constrains its nature, what constrains the quantity of symbols, or even the arbitrary configurations of those symbols? Absolutely nothing constrains them, so it is only logical to assume that every arbitrary configuration of symbols exists right 'now', always 'has', and always will (quote marks because time only exists in our local configuration).

So if(*) there is some fundamental aspect of reality, some force that performs the experiencing of these infinite phenomena, perhaps it experiences infinite, arbitrary configurations of everything- anything from receiving sensory data equivalent to the smell of a strawberry whenever the bottom 1/3rd of your toaster touches a carbon atom between 16:13 and 16:14 on a Monday, to an arbitrary I/O mapping to the configuration which we call the human brain in a totally arbitrary 'universe'.

Effectively, what I am arguing is that it may not be off-base to argue that machines can be conscious. The truth may very well be the opposite, that absolutely everything to ever exist is conscious in every way that can be conceived! That is, if there is no fundamental rule that makes my configuration the only possible conscious one, but I doubt that.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. It’s convenient to say people are too dumb but beyond the condescending nature of it, it’s a bad take. Even people who absolutely are educated and know better - senior google AI researchers - are sympathetic. People say thank you to Alexa even though no one is convinced Alexa is a person. The issue isn’t lack of awareness that it isn’t a person, it’s the silly little monkey brains we have that tells us…

> the silly little monkey brains we have ...are those things that with a trained prefrontal become the wise respectable dignified brains some have. And they may come to different conclusions (they do). Put it this way (to give your idea credit): the more intellectual sophistication there will be around, the less the suspect the one who treats scarecrows and mannequins «like a person ... even if we know it’s not», or…

Nah let’s not pretend it’s an intelligence thing. It’s not.

Saying thanks to Alexa even when you know she’s not a person is not a sign of (lack of) intelligence. It’s a sign of manners. Don’t pat yourself on the back and say you’re intelligent because you express good manners less often than the next person.

While I think it’s a bit silly that the researcher thought the chat bot was sentient, I don’t think it’s silly that the bot is perceived sufficiently human to be worth of manners if Alexa has been there for almost a decade.

I don’t think we should teach people that bots are explicitly not worth a level of manners even at the cost of a strange life-like sympathy some may develop. It took us hundreds of years to teach people that human slavery was wrong and we should treat actual people with respect - and many are still pretty bad at it. Frankly society needs all the practice it can get.

Society makes a ton of “factual mistakes”. Look at all of religion, most of politics, a huge amount of history books, much of lower-grade science education. It’s all full of “factual mistakes” that, today, probably have higher social costs than someone being nice to a robot.

What would “training” even look like? Mandatory bot-sympathizing “reeducation” classes in elementary school? We couldn’t even teach people vaccines were safe and worth getting during a pandemic, but we’re going to trying to tell people not be be nice to human-like things? I can’t imagine how high the social costs to that will be.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#625

I detect a weird and concerning undercurrent of palpable anger from people in these discussions. What is it about misidentifying sentience that's causing such ire?

This sentence translates to "lol u mad bro" That is I think you are trying to defend someone indefensible position (a google engineer taking a kinda normal ai chatbot conversation and claiming that the AI is alive) by ignoring the core issue and focusing on instead an ansilary issue. I find the misdirection uncompelling. I obviously could be wrong here and you could genuinely be wondering why this person would be mad…

“genuinely be wondering”

Of course this account won’t participate coherently in this conversation.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty skeptical of the idea of "education" here. Aesthetic preferences are still real preferences; it's not obvious to me that any amount of knowledge about the mechanics of a robot that behaves like a dog would or should convince people that it's not mean to kick it.

That «Education!» was not about knowing robotics. It may not be obvious to some that robots are generally not animals; it is hopefully a very small amount of population, but logically it will exist. It is more possible that some people know that the robot is not an animal, but the perceptual patterns cause a sensational reaction in them, and they may prefer the sensation - an hijacking - to the factual truth (which i…

> It is more possible that some people know that the robot is not an animal, but the perceptual patterns cause a sensational reaction in them, and they may prefer the sensation - an hijacking - to the factual truth

Some people just practice morality in day to day life and apply it liberally, not frugally. And importantly, it isn’t an intellectual failing.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#627
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the absence of a formal definition, any statement about "has sentience" is not only unfalsifiable, it's absurd. I have to disagree with you there. While it's indeed a question of faith (i.e. unscientific) to give a definite positive answer - or rather that a positive answer depends on a an arbitrarily chosen set of criteria - the opposite is simply not true. More formally put: making a positive claim would requi…

> Sentience in any scientific sense... I'm still not seeing a definition there though. Let's arbitrarily try: "sentience is here defined as having sensations, self awareness and sense of place in the universe". Good? Feel free to change it. I like your necessary versus sufficient phrasing, though. Let's take a look. Can we agree to remove "in any scientific sense" from there? It lends it an air of authority I'm not s…

I gave this some more thought, because I find this topic fascinating and important in light of recent developments in the field.

Sentience requires the ability to perform computations and to store information.

This is the most basic necessary precondition and rules out most inanimate objects from being sentient right away.

The scenario of a patient incapable of any kind of perception (keep in mind that this includes touch, taste, smell, and pain) and incapable of conscious interaction (e.g. locked-in syndrome) can still be observably sentient (testable by monitoring brain patterns and various pain- and reflex tests). Pain response and cranial nerve reflexes in your example, would be considered signs of brain activity and sentience. They also qualify as perceiving and interacting with the environment, though passively. Their absence in many jurisdictions is equivalent to the death of the patient (specifically they are declared brain dead).

This understanding of being alive or dead, however, is separate from our understanding of sentience. In the context of human being specifically, being alive is a requirement for being sentient. Generally, though, these are two different matters entirely.

So back to your example:

> I think I can imagine a patient who contacts a horrific virus that cuts off all external and bodily sensations.

Locked-in syndrome comes to mind.

> She is still fully cognizant but now feels herself to be bodiless, floating in nothingness.

Speculation, but sure, why not.

> From the outside, she seems to be asleep or paralyzed. She is kept alive by caretakers and her own autonomous processes but she can perceive none of it.

Every coma patient can be described by that.

> Is she sentient? Id say yes, but she nevertheless lacks some of the required conditions.

The answer depends on what I outlined above. If she has pain response or cranial nerve reflexes, she's medically considered alive and if you want to also sentient. If the physical examinations return negative results, an EEG several days apart can be used as another indication. Flat-line EEGs some days apart are a good indicator of non-sentience due to lack of any activity thought to be required for sentience (i.e. the computation-part mentioned earlier). In addition, cerebral blood flow can be tested as well.

The absence of intracranial blood flow would again indicate a complete lack of brain activity and therefore lack of sentience of any measurable kind. This of course is done over a period of time, not in an instant, as patients may still recover (though usually within days, not months or even years).

So this adds another important part to the equation: time. So I need to clarify my previous proposal by including it:

"Capable of perceiving and interacting with the environment at any point in its existence for a significant period of time."

There. I think that's much better already, because it also excludes otherwise functional humans from being sentient (e.g. children born without a cerebrum, aka anencephaly) while including people who are temporarily (due to trauma or illness) incapable of perception or interaction.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#628

Of course it is not. But there's a bigger issue here. Having read the transcript it's clear we have reached the point where we have models that can fool the average person. Sure, a minority of us know it is simply maths and vast amounts of training data... but I can also see why others will be convinced by it. I think many of us, including Google, are guilty of shooting the messenger here. Let's cut Lemoine some slac…

> I think many of us, including Google, are guilty of shooting the messenger here. Let's cut Lemoine some slack.. he is presenting an opinion that will become more prevailant as these models get more sophisticated. I think many of us are astounded (myself included) that a senior engineer on Google's "Responsible Artificial Intelligence" team would interpret LaMDA's most-probable-string-of-text-given-my-training-corpu…

The transcripts are impressive. Even knowing it is an AI bot, I still did read it with a bit of "these responses are better than I'd expect from most people I talk to over chat".

I think that the way the Google engineer raised this is probably questionable. But I think that chat quality at that level raises potentially ethical concerns, sentient or not.

Re: LaMDA is not sentient

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a portion of the population zealously believes that AIs are sentient we could see the same treatment of AI researchers or even software engineers as we've seen in other scientific pursuits by the religious. That's quite scary to me personally.

Chatbots could deliver the personal connection to a messiah figure so many modern religious movements emphasize. I would be surprised if we don't see a church founded around the ramblings of a discarded bot in our lifetimes.

TempleOS,[0] by the infamous Terry Davis, featured a program called "After Egypt" that he would use to post text supposedly comming from God (or “space alian”).[1]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=TerryADavis

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