California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#621

Post by sitkack » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

secondaryacct wrote: post #614

cs702 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment changed my mind about the debate in California: > Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard” To be clear: I don't know enough detail about the proposal in California to judge it, but the idea that most children might be better off learning certain subjects at a later age, when they are more mature, cannot be dismissed a priori, without facts, based on ideological arguments. Your comment reminds m…

Have you met a Finnish person? They are introspect to the point of being unable to take part in a conflict, care more about their individual peace than any collective construct. Best in the world ? If you want muted isolated adult, probably.

If what you say is true, you haven't shown a link between Finnish schooling and their adult behavior. Your comment does not follow.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#622

Post by simion314 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #587

simion314 wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable Can you maybe explain to a non US person why a system merit based is not used(or if it was used in the past was dropped) , I understand there are limitation with this system, I will describe next: 1 there is national/state level exam with super strong security to prevent cheating 2 highschool/universities will be plac…

Sounds like china's gaokao? It might be mericratic, but it's also very high stakes and just leads to your entire high school being devoted to test cramming.

It can be high stakes exams, the admit ion grade is 75% the grade of the national exam. For addition in high school there is always a possibility of transfers if you maybe had a super bad day and got a low grade , for university you can wait 1 year and try again.

> and just leads to your entire high school being devoted to test cramming.

This is a better measure on how competent you are then some lottery or interview.

To prepare for tests like mathematics implies you actually need to learn and solve problems, it is not an exam that measures your instincts or if you are gifted.

I am from Romania btw, and when IO was a child there was no national exam, I had to chose 1 highschool then go there and take an exam with the other kids that chose the same highschool , if I overestimated my abilities then I would have been screwed for at least 1 semester or year. In present with a national exams the kids have it much better

- it is clear exactly what areas are covered by the exam so you can ignore stuff that is not needed

- models of subject exams are published and you can try and evaluate your level

- you can check the previous years subjects, grades, admision numbers and you can have a good idea what grade you need to get at your proffered high school.

Also as I mentioned high schools here are specialized, so you have 2 that are specialized in math, physics ad informatics , 1 that is art , 1 focused on economics, 1 focused in pedagogy,literature and languages , 1 focused in chemistry and we have professional school that are for kids that hate books and just want a job, here they can learn to be a car mechanic, construction, cooks etc. So you could not randomly distribute children around and ignore their preferences, you could put a child that hates math in the math highscool and a child that hates art in the art school.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#623

Post by charlieyu1 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #509

simion314 wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable Can you maybe explain to a non US person why a system merit based is not used(or if it was used in the past was dropped) , I understand there are limitation with this system, I will describe next: 1 there is national/state level exam with super strong security to prevent cheating 2 highschool/universities will be plac…

I moved to the US only 2 years ago, so am still learning about the system. As far as I can tell, the reasons for not using standardized test scores (such as the SAT and ACT) are that: 1. Using only these scores would boost the proportion of elite university places awarded to Asians, who are already 'overrepresented' relative to their share of the population. Propel state various reasons why this is undesirable (equit…

And the problems would have worsen without standardised test. Most of the other common entrance criteria, eg write an essay, would favour the rich who can seek a lot of outside help to "proofread" their essay. With standardised tests at least you have to do it on your own.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#624

Post by CountDrewku » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

dav_Oz wrote: post #605

These superficial debates are in my eyes futile since they presuppose: "We ought to have a strict curriculum for a certain narrow age group." After what we have learned the last 30-50 years from cognitive sciences one has to wonder what schools are actually for, nowadays. There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means. Imho to put it blatantly schools are reduced to be a effective stronghold for i…

>After what we have learned the last 30-50 years from cognitive sciences one has to wonder what schools are actually for, nowadays. There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means.

They're daycares and increasingly being used to spread propaganda.

This idea that ANYONE will be helped by giving them a free pass needs to stop. No minority will have an improved life by saying they are too mentally deficient to learn hard things. This is a political game where politicians refuse to recognize that fixing this is not an easy slap a bill in place an everything will be better. I think what they're hoping is that they can "fix" the numbers to show higher achievement by lowering standards and get voted back into office. We'll certainly be feeling the negative effects of these sorts of policies in a few decades if this bullshit continues.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#625

Post by hdjjhhvvhga » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

kilbuz wrote: post #616

dav_Oz wrote: post #605

These superficial debates are in my eyes futile since they presuppose: "We ought to have a strict curriculum for a certain narrow age group." After what we have learned the last 30-50 years from cognitive sciences one has to wonder what schools are actually for, nowadays. There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means. Imho to put it blatantly schools are reduced to be a effective stronghold for i…

For the majority of parents, schools are "free daycare".

For some, paid daycare. Still, this daycare needs to meet certain expectations, that is to prepare the kids for exams. As for actual education - that is, pursuing your passion by exploring the subject in depth - I believe this is happening mostly outside of school for obvious reasons.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#626

Post by dzonga » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

anchpop wrote: post #454

moksly wrote: post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

There was an informal study done in the early 20th century, where a superintendent decided he didn’t think math was that useful and told the 4 poorest elementary schools in his district to stop teaching it. (He chose the poorest schools because he knew the parents wouldn’t put up as much of a fuss as at the wealthier schools.) They still taught how to count, read clocks, and make change, but besides that they had no…

I was one of those kids, that didn't do good at math compared to other subjects. I was still close to a top student, albeit a lazy one. maybe that affected my math ability. it was only in college, ie in the States, that my math scores average high B's and A's n those scores were in calculus etc, math required for CS.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#627

Post by hdjjhhvvhga » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #502

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

> I happened to learn to read at age 5 (not in Germany nor USA) but that didn’t make me “better” than other kids; they did other things.

My experience is the opposite. Because I learned to read early, I was able to absorb a huge amount of information previously inaccessible to me. There was simply no comparison - I was far better in every subject that required either knowing some information or processing it. The only exceptions were the subjects where body skill was important (art, PE, etc.) - in these areas I had some competition, I others there was nobody. I believe our chances balanced more or less in the second year of high school.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#628

Post by hdjjhhvvhga » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

> All I hope is that this cancerous ideology doesn't grow any further than it already has.

Give me one reason why you think your hope is valid. Everywhere I look this attitude seems to grow stronger and even discussing it becomes socially awkward, at least in some circles.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#629

Post by vanusa » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

foxhop wrote: post #582

We have observed that physical distancing children hurt a lot of children. It was a sacrifical experiment to try to save the elderly and weak. When the virus leaked from the Wuhan laboratory and spread across the globe in a matter of months, we knew even then that children are not really at risk of dying from sars-cov-2. Seems like the correct course of action for the times is to take education out of the hands of go…

When the virus leaked from the Wuhan laboratory and spread across the globe in a matter of months,

If this is what gets "taught" around the dinner table at home ... then in such a house, all STEM education will be moot.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#630

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

secondaryacct wrote: post #614

cs702 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment changed my mind about the debate in California: > Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard” To be clear: I don't know enough detail about the proposal in California to judge it, but the idea that most children might be better off learning certain subjects at a later age, when they are more mature, cannot be dismissed a priori, without facts, based on ideological arguments. Your comment reminds m…

Have you met a Finnish person? They are introspect to the point of being unable to take part in a conflict, care more about their individual peace than any collective construct. Best in the world ? If you want muted isolated adult, probably.

Honestly this sounds like absolutely wonderful qualities I wished more people in the world had.

Nothing screwed us more than willingness of people to take part in conflicts.

Imagine how much harm and waste could be avoided if when generals daid, let's go liberate Afghanistan soldiers responded, nah, I'm good rather then collectively following ideas of imaginary Uncle Sam.