Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#621

Post by grog454 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #365

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #310

> “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” The fact that this attitude is common scares me when I'm doing interviews. Time off is incredibly important to me. What's the use of making a great income if you can't get the time off to enjoy it? The culture about the use of PTO varies wildly between companies. A friend of mine worked somewhere that supposedly gave 20 days…

The context is key. First interview . The issue isn’t taking time off, it’s that the prospective employee’s head is up their proverbial ass. First interview is propspecting. If you were selling a product, if the customer is asking about the return policy before even selecting an option, it’s a similar signal. When you’re in a subsequent interview talking about the benefit plan, salary, etc, that’s where that sort of…

This made me chuckle because occasionally, for some things I buy, return policy might be my primary concern (more important than even having the item in the first place).

You're reading way too deeply in to signals that could mean anything. At the risk of coming across as antagonistic - I'll probably start asking about PTO in the first interview even though it tends to be irrelevant to me, to avoid working with organizations that foster this mindset.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#622

Post by skolsuper » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #567

Barrin92 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and also importantly people who have family to take care of. If someone comes to me and asks for time off because they have children or partners or parents to take care off and they take that seriously that certainly deserves some respect would make a better impression on me than someone showing up with a Patrick Bateman business card in hand

If I ask for time off to sit on my arse all day and play games what would you say?

Who are you, and how did you get into my kitchen?

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#623

Post by pksebben » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 5:51 AM UTC

gavinray wrote: post #110

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

Agreed, I don't know why the industry (or people?) in general have a problem with accepting this abilities gap. It's as if the notion of people being arbitrarily born more or less with a knack for something is evil. Let me tell you the story of when I realized I was (at best), a "not-mediocre" dev: 1. I've been programming for fun even as a kid. That's what got me into it: If you count kid-programming as "programming…

Regarding this issue of "innate" talent, I want to ask, how do you know?

there are just so many variables that go into human cognition. Belief. Drive. Focus. Grit. Exposure to ideas. Social support. Physical resources. Exercise. Health.

Each of these contribute, in some way, to every moment we spend learning. They are always changing. Each moment we learn affects the outcome of the next. It's Conway's game of life in n-dimensions.

My second question, and this is perhaps more important; what is the effect of a belief in innate talent? What don't you do or try because you believed it wouldn't work? Because you believed you couldn't? What do you beliefs cost you?

I realize my questions are pointed, and for that I apologize. They are, however, genuine.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#624

Post by wirrbel » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #310

> “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” The fact that this attitude is common scares me when I'm doing interviews. Time off is incredibly important to me. What's the use of making a great income if you can't get the time off to enjoy it? The culture about the use of PTO varies wildly between companies. A friend of mine worked somewhere that supposedly gave 20 days…

This is so strange. I have 40 hrs /week (registered, if I work over time I can take days off to compensate for) and 30 days of vacation per year (on doctor's note sick days are not taken from the vacation-days account).

It's plenty of time for my employer to extract value from me. If the org wants me to work more, they can make me be in meetings less.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#625

Post by yibg » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #293

faizshah wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the opposite of how you should want any knowledge worker to think. If you believe that there’s some innate ability that makes people 10x better at a skill than you rather than hours of practice and study then you are much less likely to acquire that skill or learn those skills efficiently. You need to have a growth mindset to be an effective knowledge worker not a fixed mindset. This is discussed in the book…

As your sports coach always said "You don't need talent to practice!" I'm not a huge believer of some mystical "innate ability" that people sometimes use to explain talent. Imagine a great concert pianist who plays flawlessly. After the concert, someone says, "Oh, you were born with such a wonderful gift of talent!" If I were that pianist, I'd be kind of offended--it totally ignores the decades of daily practice it t…

The 2 aren’t mutually exclusive. You need talent and hard work to be “the best” in any given field. It doesn’t matter how hard I practice, I’m not going to be a world class sprinter or a world famous singer, my body isn’t built for it.

For some reason when it comes to physical limitations we accept it. But we reject it when it comes to mental capabilities. There are naturally smarter people, at least in specific areas.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#626

Post by yibg » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:04 AM UTC

ferrumfist wrote: post #331

ryandrake wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your sports coach always said "You don't need talent to practice!" I'm not a huge believer of some mystical "innate ability" that people sometimes use to explain talent. Imagine a great concert pianist who plays flawlessly. After the concert, someone says, "Oh, you were born with such a wonderful gift of talent!" If I were that pianist, I'd be kind of offended--it totally ignores the decades of daily practice it t…

Talent is used as a label by someone who doesn't understand the practice involved in the given craft. No one wakes up and paints a masterpiece. It takes years and years of hard work and studying to get to a point before you can even get close to masterpiece level.

But conversely, most people will never produce a masterpiece regardless of how long they spend at it.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#627

Post by jdougan » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:05 AM UTC

hatch_q wrote: post #467

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

Author nails it though with: "We should be far more concerned with keeping 0.1x programmers off our teams than finding the mythical 10x programmer."

No, you need to watch out for the -1x programmers. At least the 0.1x are moving forward,

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#628

Post by therealdrag0 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

RNCTX wrote: post #598

shoo wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a path-dependent local optimisation aspect to HN comment threads. All things equal, threads that are higher up the page during the right time window get more eyeballs and more engagement, which might encourage people to hang their replies off the currently-popular thread. If we reran the "experiment" under essentially the same conditions we might find that a different bunch of responses get the most enga…

It's still reflective of reality though! If I know one thing from working for large corporations, it's that whatever is talked about the most will never change.

Aand there’s a segue back to the current discussion. There was a thread about “people don’t actually like innovation”. :)

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#629

Post by diob » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:08 AM UTC

pksebben wrote: post #623

gavinray wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I don't know why the industry (or people?) in general have a problem with accepting this abilities gap. It's as if the notion of people being arbitrarily born more or less with a knack for something is evil. Let me tell you the story of when I realized I was (at best), a "not-mediocre" dev: 1. I've been programming for fun even as a kid. That's what got me into it: If you count kid-programming as "programming…

Regarding this issue of "innate" talent, I want to ask, how do you know? there are just so many variables that go into human cognition. Belief. Drive. Focus. Grit. Exposure to ideas. Social support. Physical resources. Exercise. Health. Each of these contribute, in some way, to every moment we spend learning. They are always changing. Each moment we learn affects the outcome of the next. It's Conway's game of life in…

They've done some pretty extensive studies on ability / achievement. The big driver being parents wanting to ensure their kids turn out great, or to make their kids smart.

Turns out environment can only really have _detrimental_ effects on outcomes for kids. You can't increase what they don't have, but you definitely can fuck them up. I thought it was pretty interesting.

So basically, the advice most parents get now is, don't drop them on their head :) Of course, that also means provide them with the opportunities to learn / use their ability.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#630

Post by pksebben » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #507

faizshah wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re missing the point or I was unclear. The point is not that masters at a skill don't exist. The point is that attributing their skill mostly to something innate rather than practice, study, etc is not supported by the body of research they review in the book (the book is written for a general audience, their academic research supports the arguments in the book).

There is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. No matter how much you or I would practice, study, etc. we would never become as good as tourist. Most people reach their plateau in competitive coding within 1 year. For example, here's my Codeforces profile: https://codeforces.com/profile/baobab Started in 2015, plateau'd in 2016 and no measurable improvement from subsequent 3 years of practice and study.

is it at all possible that practice and study are insufficient to create further growth? What I think faizshah is talking about is that there is enormous complexity that goes into creating skill.

what sort of community do you leverage for their knowledge? how frequently do you expose yourself to new ideas? do you practice abstraction in places other than code? do you practice effectively and take notes that you review? keep a journal? meditate? are you in good cardiovascular shape?

all of these are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to contributing factors. a plateau is a sign of stagnant processes.

I apologize in advance for what I'm sure is a frustrating tone. I'm sympathetic to your situation.