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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#621

Post by mellavora »

paulddraper wrote: post #609
mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension Then that's the difference. American citizens can collect Social Security while residing in foreign countries. Same with VA benefits.

I think you misunderstood. Most (EU) pension systems also payout worldwide.

It is the 'putting in' part which depends on residency.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#622

Post by jandrese »

emodendroket wrote: post #559
jandrese wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more expensive than that since they don't refund you the money you paid into Social Security when you renounce.

Why would they refund past taxes you'd paid?

The money you put into taxes went into national defense that kept you safe, roads you drove on, schools that provided an educated workforce that made the goods and services you consumed, etc...

Money put into Social Security is just lost to you unless you are renouncing your money after retirement.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#623

Post by paulddraper »

mellavora wrote: post #621
paulddraper wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension Then that's the difference. American citizens can collect Social Security while residing in foreign countries. Same with VA benefits.

I think you misunderstood. Most (EU) pension systems also payout worldwide. It is the 'putting in' part which depends on residency.

They have one criterion for putting in and a different one for paying out?

That would seem.....unfair.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#624

Post by qwytw »

bnralt wrote: post #527
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say America is worse than other countries at getting citizens out of bad situations I last saw data through the UNDP about ten years ago. It's very possible that the situation has degraded. And no country has 100% coverage, far from it. At the time, however, the U.S. government was exceedingly good at exfiltrating citizens from disaster zones. Granted, it has had more experience doing this because, well, empire…

If you come across the data please share it, it would be worthwhile seeing what exactly they're talking about and if the data matches your memory of it. I didn't come across it in my (very limited) search, but I did find this analysis that suggests U.S. citizens fare worse than citizens of many other countries[1]: > According to a database compiled by New America from public sources, since 2001, American hostages tak…

It's because USA has a policy of not paying any ransoms or making concessions to the hostage takers (unlike most other western countries). I'd assume this might also result in Americans being targeted less often than people from other countries (I haven't see any data on this).

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#625

Post by jandrese »

BeetleB wrote: post #612
jandrese wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more expensive than that since they don't refund you the money you paid into Social Security when you renounce.

Social Security is not a pension - this is a common misconception. The SS tax is to pay current retirees. There's a formula that states how much you'll get when you retire, but the money you're putting in now is not being saved/invested for your benefit in the future. The short version: Money you put into SS is not your money.

You still put a bunch of money into it on the promise that after retirement you will have income, and that promise is broken when you renounce your citizenship. Also, Social Security is closer to real pensions than you think, they're just different from the theoretical concept of a pension that isn't actually used outside of the Post Office.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#626

Post by ElFitz »

emodendroket wrote: post #472
ElFitz wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I’ve read, the US is possibly one of the worst countries to have to file taxes with, paperwork-wise. And that’s for the simple scenario of someone actually living in the US. But is also is another issue altogether. How US citizens can bear with this and the lobbying that spawned it is beyond me.

The people who have complicated taxes also usually have complex income sources and generally higher incomes. If you just get your wage the tax forms are relatively straightforward. Being international complicates things but you'll notice people are talking about the headaches associated with running their businesses, capital gains, etc.

Well, I am glad to stand corrected.

Most of my knowledge of it comes from all the threads about Intuit's and H&R Block's lobbying regarding what IRS could and could not do to simplify tax filling.

If you don’t me asking. If it is as straightforward, what actually is the point in said lobbying?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#627

Post by ConSeannery »

jontas wrote: post #265
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

The article is not drawing an arbitrary line: > The IRS publishes a quarterly list of the names of people who have renounced their citizenship or given up their green cards, but it only includes people with global assets over $2 million It may be an arbitrary line, but if so, it's the IRS drawing it.

It's not quite arbitrary, it relates to having to pay an exit tax if your global net worth meets or exceeds 2 million.

You are correct in that the IRS chose this number.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#629

Post by bell-cot »

azinman2 wrote: post #577
bell-cot wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...it would seem that the IRS is trying very hard make this process unappealing IANAL, but I believe that all the unpleasantries which you note were decided by the U.S. Congress. (Most probably with the President's sign-off.) Making the IRS out to be the Real Villain(tm) here only helps a bunch of self-serving politicians to evade responsibility.

And what's wrong with this? Personally I'm very happy to see it. The idea that you make tons and tons of money by what America has worked hard to offer you and then you want to skip town because of taxes? Taxes that help pay for all the advantages that got you that wealth in the first place? Good for Congress for trying to prevent this.

If the unpleasantries only applied to a few very rich, who were trying to skip town that way, then you'd have a decent argument.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the vast majority of targets bear no resemblance to your stereotype. And the system has no interest in discriminating between the few filthy rich town-skippers and the vast majority who are just easy victims.

Targeting all members of large group - because a small minority of them are "bad" in some emotional-button-pushing way - has a very long and disreputable history.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#630

Post by ElFitz »

emodendroket wrote: post #618
ElFitz wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly because the gap in international political reach and leverage, respective economic situations and means are too huge for there to be a point. Also because I suspect the population here to likely be mostly from Western countries. Cf dang’s comment[1] stating that 50% of the userbase is from the US [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25787770

Will I think it is relevant because the fact that the passport holder benefits from all that makes it one of the best by any reasonable standard, unless you arbitrarily ignore all the worse ones and then say it's the "worst of the best," so to speak.

And I would argue that it’s like comparing professional Formula 1 drivers’ performance to that of professional kart racers. Or a five stars hotel to a motel by the highway.

But I see your point, and we’ll probably have to settle on agreeing to disagree.

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