A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#621

Post by jl6 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #544

s1artibartfast wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of shades of trans support, If you asked the most extreme questions you would probably get different answers. It is one thing to ask people should be able can use a bathroom, and another to ask questions about personal sexlife and behavior. i.e. if you asked people if you consider transwomen equally with women at birth as sexual partners, I bet the numbers fall through the floor.

Well, sure. If you ask people whether they consider Black and Asian men equally as sex partners, the numbers would also fall through the floor. This doesn't mean Black or Asian men are less of men, or even that they're necessarily against either of those groups, it just means people have preferences in what their partners' bodies are like. My point is just that "trans women are women and trans men are men" is actuall…

I think you may have missed the point in GP’s post. “Trans-women are women” is a common opinion in a casual context (like when greeting a colleague in an office), but in contexts where the stakes are higher (like when choosing a sexual partner), very few will treat trans-women as women.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#622

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #598

hackinthebochs wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? It's really not that hard to understand. It's the same sort of thinking that motivates the slogan "don't punch down". Males aren't threatened by females identifying as men. But females are threatened by males identify…

Seeing as how the historical perspective is almost directly reversed from what you claim, I'm going to have to be skeptical about this. The European-historical aversion to largely one-way nonconforming to gender and sexual roles (men acting as women being a problem, ditto male homosexual behavior) is pretty explicitly due to a rejection of (heterosexual) masculinity translating as a threat to that (heterosexual) masc…

There is certainly a longstanding cultural thread of defending traditional manhood through explicit castigation of male deviants, but notably the source of the explicit castigation is largely from other males. The pushback against trans-women's acceptance as women isn't largely driven by men. It is pretty evenly distributed, or perhaps even more driven by women. The point is that these seem to be distinct phenomena driven by distinct concerns.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#623

Post by dougmwne » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #554

dougmwne wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only weird to you because you are almost certainly straight, cis and male. Let me explain. All of society is structured around your identity. Like the fish, you can't even see the water because you have always been in it. I'm unlikely to help you see the water, but let me at least try. If you meet a friend, he might comment he saw a movie with his new girlfriend. He shows you a photo on his phone and you say she…

Thank you, that was very nicely said. It's distressing the degree to which people want to blame others for their identities while regarding their own as some kind of fundamental default of nature. It's only "identity politics" when it's somebody else's identity.

Thanks. I think that gets lost easily in these discussions. This is my family. My partner, my mother and father-in-law, my sister-in-law, my nephew, my home, my plans for the future. It's connected to everything I might tell you about my life over the past 14 years. Having someone label all that as "awkward" or "political" is pretty extreme, especially when the person suggesting it doesn't even have a hint at the enormity of what they just said. It's the very definition of "casual erasure", something that sounds political and till someone comes up to you and tries to erase you.

Edit: to the people down voting my mother-in-law, she is a kind and caring woman!

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#624

Post by bsder » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted.

There is something about tech, though, that seems to concentrate the male to female transitioners far above background levels.

I can count more than a half-dozen male to female transition folks in my tech circles. I can't even think of one that I bumped into doing any non-tech social activity.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#625

Post by TaylorAlexander » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #589

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't think there's a tenable path forward besides dispassionate debate. How do we work through a conflict without dispassionate debate? I will explain my understanding of the answer. I do not claim my answer is the right one, but it is what I see. Let’s say there are two groups. One group we will call a marginalized minority and another group we will call the majority or dominant group. The answer is not…

I appreciate your perspective. I agree with a lot, including that trans people are legitimately marginalized in our society in some measure (certainly the extent to which authorities fail to investigate murders of trans victims is abhorrent). > The answer is not for the marginalized people and the dominant group to debate directly. To be clear, this isn't "trans people" vs "non-trans people". There are lots of trans…

I appreciate the thoughtful response. I’m in the go so I will try to make a quick reply.

> The parties to the debate are different ideologies, not different trans/non-trans identities.

I think the concept of intersectionality is useful here. Ideology is one component but identity is another. If we treat this like a simple ideological debate the potential trauma of the marginalized group could be ignored, potentially causing the mere act of the debate to re traumatize people in that group.

> No doubt you mean well, but black people and white people are equal, and race doesn't confer anyone with either authority or fragility with respect to having their positions criticized.

Respectfully I think this is a misunderstanding of my view. I learned to keep my mouth shut not because people in marginalized groups are fragile. I learned to keep my mouth shut because I learned that my outsider status means a lot of things marginalized people say night not make immediate sense to me. Trying to interrogate (neutral sense) their reasoning can be a traumatic experience for them. I learned this when I asked women at Google to explain their sexual harassment to me. A female friend took the time to explain to me that even asking the question could cause distress in women. Now when someone says something I disagree with I stay silent and I go and google the thing and learn more about it on my own.

Certainly in some cases the person wants to discuss the thing with me, but I don’t assume that to be the case.

I also learned this from a person of color who did not appreciate similar questions from me. While there is a LOT of worthwhile criticism of Robin DiAngelo, her talks helped me understand that concept better.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#626

Post by jotux » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #264

jotux wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't this be the opposite of that scenario? As in, someone has a given name at birth but they prefer a nickname and some people find using the nickname too onerous and use their given name instead?

Yeah, my legal name is "Michael". If I asked you to call me "Mike" is that really such a pain for you?

No, it wouldn't be a pain for me or most people.

The point I was making is that giving someone a nickname they don't like is completely different from not calling someone a nickname they prefer.

Regarding nicknames, I do sometimes interact with people that have nicknames that I'm not comfortable with or the thought of using that name for them doesn't seem respectful. For example, I took a two week class that was taught by former astronaut Sherwood "Woody" Spring. His peers all called him Woody but it seemed too personal for the teach-student relationship we were in and I defaulted to calling him Mr. Spring. He didn't mind that. I suspect the majority of people that go by nicknames don't really mind when people call them by their given name or a formal version of their name.

Generally I think nicknames are just a bad analogy for gender, so we shouldn't use the comparison at all.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#627

Post by jolux » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #578

scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

But how can anyone _possibly_ deny the first part? How could anyone contradict an individual who states their own gender - on what grounds can you claim to know how someone feels about themselves better than they themself do? How do you define denying the first part? According to my child's world view, I need to ask them every day what their pronouns are today. And any accidental slip-ups on any adult's part are a de…

> According to my child's world view, I need to ask them every day what their pronouns are today. And any accidental slip-ups on any adult's part are a demonstration of transphobia, which justifies a raised voice and lecture.

I agree that their request is unreasonable, and I'm sorry for the stress it's causing you. I can't really justify their behavior on a rational basis (teens, right?). And obviously I don't know your child, and I don't know you, but as a trans person who went through a similar phase, maybe consider what they might be thinking if you want to understand why they might be behaving like this?

For one thing, they almost certainly know your opinions about the persistence of trans identity and online echo chambers of gender identity. If (real if) you're hostile to the idea that they could really be trans, it's possible they feel hostile to the idea that you could really be making a good faith best effort to support them, which is what this sounds like to me: defensiveness. I had a very similar dynamic with my parents for several years. We came out of it understanding each other a lot better, but it was certainly rough in the thick of it. I really hope you can find a way to resolve the tension.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#628

Post by eropple » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

meragrin_ wrote: post #396

ENIanDEM wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really? Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.

> predatory trans women How about predatory men pretending to be trans-women?

If you're going to hypothesize, doesn't it obligate you to substantiate the claim?

Are predatory men pretending to be transwomen a problem on any statistically noticeable level?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#629

Post by blindmute » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

deadite wrote: post #319

caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

It's because there is no reason to have animosity toward a woman becoming a man. The main objections to MtF are about safety (a MtF will always be stronger and bigger than a woman on average) and fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#630

Post by dukeofdoom » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:16 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #370

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

I once read an anti corporate critique of this phenomenon. The argument went something like this:

Once female beauty was commoditized, and you could literally purchase an upgrade to parts you were born with. Entire cosmetic and plastic surgery industry benefited from marketing and promoting this model of beauty. The unforeseen consequence was that men started fetishizing these upgrades themselves.

As some men hyper focus on female body parts anyway. It was a way to exploit psychological tendencies for profit.

I guess the counter remedy would be to promote female beauty as the whole, and not some collection of body parts.