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M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

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Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#621
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that ship has sailed. Anything new that comes now can be built according to the expectations smartphones have set over the past decade and a half. Closed systems that are treated like disposable items. Even PCs in their mobile incarnation are now far less open and flexible than they used to be. The reason PCs are still open is historical, they started like this and people can't really see PCs any other way but th…

We've basically got one foot though that door already. > We'll have some niche manufacturer building something more open for the small segment of enthusiasts. I would argue that's exactly what Raspberry Pi and Arduino is.

The raspberry pi requires a very proprietary and custom boot process. Nothing can start until you first load the GPU driver blob on to the SoC.

This is why you need rpi specific distro builds.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> x86 is not "Open" in any fashion. You can't license x86 even for a fee, let alone free. OP is not talking about being able to manufacture x86 CPUs kind of open, that's useless for most folks. They're talking about being able to install any OS, drivers being fairly universal, no device specific out of tree kernel patches for the vast majority of PCs, no device trees etc.

It's a lousy use of the word "Open" in a discipline where Open has a fairly specific meaning. I mentioned that as well though. Using your goofy definition of Open, x86 is no more "Open" than ARM. Pinebook and Raspberry Pi both use no bullshit ARM setups. With ARM, how accessible the architecture is is 100% dependent on the implementation which vary greatly by manufacturer.

> Raspberry Pi both use no bullshit ARM setups.

Seriously? You need a blob from Broadcom to even boot the thing, and you call that a no bullshit ARM setup? I am astounded.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#623
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think the overarching point is true: now desktop and laptop makers can't just pretend that having a hot and/or slow, clunky, noisy x86-based architecture is just a fact of life. I hope and expect that it'll help create a new generation of ARM-based laptops and maybe even desktops that will run cool and smooth. Be careful what you wish for. X86 is the most open architecture right now. ARM, on the other hand, h…

I am pretty sure the most open at the moment are OpenPOWER and RISC-V, while there is is MIPS I am sure how open it is.

Can you buy a desktop with those right now?

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think the overarching point is true: now desktop and laptop makers can't just pretend that having a hot and/or slow, clunky, noisy x86-based architecture is just a fact of life. I hope and expect that it'll help create a new generation of ARM-based laptops and maybe even desktops that will run cool and smooth. Be careful what you wish for. X86 is the most open architecture right now. ARM, on the other hand, h…

> messy device trees Can you please elaborate?

> * the x86 world resolves around standards such as ACPI, BIOSes and general-purpose dynamic buses. > * ACPI normalises every single piece of hardware from the perspective of most low-level peripherals. > * the BIOS also helps in that normalisation. DOS INT33 is the classic one i remember. > * the general-purpose dynamic buses include: - USB and its speed variants (self-describing peripherals) - PCI and its derivatives (self-describing peripherals) - SATA and its speed variants (self-describing peripherals)

> exceptions to the above include i2c (unusual, and taken care of by i2c-sensors, which uses good heuristics to "probe" devices from userspace) and the ISA bus and its derivatives such as Compact Flash and IDE. even PCMCIA got sufficient advances to auto-identify devices from userspace at runtime.

> so as a general rule, supporting a new x86-based piece of hardware is a piece of piss. get datasheet or reverse-engineer, drop it in, it's got BIOS, ACPI, USB, PCIe, SATA, wow big deal, job done. also as a general rule, hardware that conforms to x86-motherboard-like layouts such as the various powerpc architectures are along the same lines.

> so here, device tree is a real easy thing to add, and to some extent a "nice-to-have". i.e. it's not really essential to have device tree on top of something where 99% of the peripherals can describe themselves dynamically over their bus architecture when they're plugged in!

> now let's look at the ARM world.

> * is there a BIOS? no. so all the boot-up procedures including ultra-low-level stuff like DDR3 RAM timings initialisation, which is normally the job of the BIOS - must be taken care of BY YOU (usually in u-boot) and it must be done SPECIFICALLY CUSTOMISED EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME FOR EVERY SINGLE SPECIFIC HARDWARE COMBINATION.

> * is there ACPI present? no. so anything related to power management, fans (if there are any), temperature detection (if there is any), all of that must be taken care of BY YOU.

> * what about the devices? here's where it becomes absolute hell on earth as far as attempting to "streamline" the linux kernel into a "one size fits all" monolithic package.

> the classic example i give here is the HTC Universal, which was a device that, after 3 years of dedicated reverse-engineering, finally had fully-working hardware with the exception of write to its on-board NAND. the reason for the complexity is in the hardware design, where not even 110 GPIO pins of the PXA270 were enough to cover all of the peripherals, so they had to use a custom ASIC with an additional 64 GPIO pins. it turned out that that wasn't enough either, so in desperation the designers used the 16 GPIO pins of the Ericsson 3G Radio ROM, in order to do basic things like switch on the camera flash LED.

> the point is: each device that's designed using an ARM processor is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DIFFERENT from any other device in the world.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2013/05/msg00009.html

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can't do what you do on a desktop on a laptop, not even a good one Yeah… no, those days are over. The reviews clearly show the M1 Macs, including the MacBook Pro outperform most "desktops" at graphics-intensive tasks. >So no, M1 is not comparable to a Threadripper, it's not even close, even if it consumes a lot more energy Um… nobody is comparing an M1 Mac to a processor that often costs more than either the M1…

The M1 beats low end desktop GPUs from a couple of generations ago (~25% faster than the 1050ti and RX560 according to this benchmark [0]). Current high end GPUs are much faster than that (e.g the 3080 is ~5 times as powerful as a 1050ti). Don't get me wrong - this is still very impressive with a ~20w combined! power draw under full load, but it definitely doesn't beat mid - high desktop GPUs. (This is largely irrele…

How much does a 3080 cost? Could you build a complete computer around one for $1000?

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#626

Patrick Moorhead is a stock analyst for the chip industry. In Wall Street terms, he is aligned with Intel others who are shaking in their boots right now. He's not going to say that the M1 is great until Intel/NVidia/etc. allow him to. These pundits know which side of his bread is buttered. He knows that his clients were caught off-guard by the M1 announcement. He needs to give his clients enough time to sell their I…

Is Intel really so blind that they didn't see this coming or even have detailed inside info about it?

I would wager that they knew, but execs chose to protect their personal short term interests overt those of the company and its long term shareholders. This is typical modern US publicly traded company behavior.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#627
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly; they do not have their cores anymore, they are going to use ARM's Cortex. So their SoC will be always average at best, by definition. They won't be able to make anything exceptional.

HiSilicon's Kirin chips use Cortex microarchitecture and are very competitive. I didn't follow recent releases, but I remember that the Kirin 970 was way ahead of the Snapdragon and Exynos chips at the time, both in terms of performance and power efficiency.

Huawei often releases new Kirin SoC on October with Mate series meanwhile Qualcomm reseases flagship Snapdragon 8xx on December, so Kirin outperform latest Snapdragon that released on last year.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#628
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When iPhone came out in 2007, Android was still an OS for BlackBerry like devices. It didn't take long for Android to discover touch screens once Apple made it clear that they were dramatically better. Similarly, it's not like other ARM chip manufacturers are going to have to go through all of the same R&D expense to figure out how to make chips that are comparably fast--they just need to copy what Apple did without…

Qualcomm has been unable to compete with Apple's ARM phone processors for years. It's gotten to the point that the only processor that comes close to a new Apple SOC on benchmarks is Apple's previous SOC. Why do you expect the PC market will be different than the phone market?

Because now Qualcomm just use (or modifying a bit, like cache capacity) Cortex-A CPU core design. Both Intel and AMD designs own core.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The M1 beats low end desktop GPUs from a couple of generations ago (~25% faster than the 1050ti and RX560 according to this benchmark [0]). Current high end GPUs are much faster than that (e.g the 3080 is ~5 times as powerful as a 1050ti). Don't get me wrong - this is still very impressive with a ~20w combined! power draw under full load, but it definitely doesn't beat mid - high desktop GPUs. (This is largely irrele…

How much does a 3080 cost? Could you build a complete computer around one for $1000?

You're missing the point. I'm not trying to argue about which system is better, I'm just saying that the comment I'm replying to is saying incorrect things about GPU performance. I'll answer your question anyway though:

You could build a complete desktop system including a GPU that's more powerful than the one in the M1 for ~$1000, but certainly not a 3080. They're very expensive, and nobody has any in stock anyway.

An RX 580 or 1660 would probably be the right GPU with that budget. (Although you could go with something more powerful and skimp out on CPU and ram if you only cared about gaming performance).

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#630

Patrick Moorhead is a stock analyst for the chip industry. In Wall Street terms, he is aligned with Intel others who are shaking in their boots right now. He's not going to say that the M1 is great until Intel/NVidia/etc. allow him to. These pundits know which side of his bread is buttered. He knows that his clients were caught off-guard by the M1 announcement. He needs to give his clients enough time to sell their I…

I agree in general, but is this really true?

> the legacy chip makers have a business model that doesn't work

It seems like this implicitly assumes that everyone switching to Apple silicon is a possibility. But it doesn't seem likely that all the android users are going to switch to iphones or that all the windows/linux users are going to switch to macs.

This is hugely embarrassing for Intel and Qualcomm in particular, and stocks will fall. But the business model outside the walled garden isn't necessarily going to change.

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