‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#621

Post by joshuamorton » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

0xy wrote: post #561

joshuamorton wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because an extensive pattern of racism against Black employees is still an extensive pattern of racism. Being an exceptional employer to Asian or White or Middle Eastern employees does not excuse an extensive pattern of racism against Black employees, and vice versa. Like, I'm not sure how to clarify this further. Being racist against only a specific race or races is very much still racism (sort of by the definition,…

I don't think it's extensive because of the very low sample size, the fact we don't know about each instance and none of it has been corroborated. I'm also uneasy about letting black people speak for other POCs on this issue. In my experience, racists tend to be racist towards multiple or all other races rather than a single one -- hence why you dismissing other POCs views on it doesn't make sense to me. Less than 1%…

At the risk of repeating myself, it's not 1%. It's 50%.

I don't see back people speaking for other poc. I see black people speaking about their own experiences, and you discounting those experiences because they may not be shared by other poc.

It also seems strange to me that you believe racism is always cross-cultural. The causes of anti-black, anti-middle eastern, and anti-asian discrimination by americans are all different, why do you assume they'd be the same. Things get even more complicated when you add other cultures to the mix. You presumably don't discount caste discrimination against one caste because the others didn't experience it, so why presume that someone who is prejudiced against black people must also be prejudiced against asians?

While there is racism against asian people in tech in the bay, it's usually model minority related things, or language based (or there are other kinds but less common in a workplace context). Less about being unqualified, and more about being different. It wouldn't at all surprise me if the multiracial leadership team of coinbase set the culture such that certain forms of prejudice (that affect the leadership) were not allowed, while certain forms of prejudice (that perhaps the leadership shares, or perhaps they are simply ambivalent about) can fester.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#622

Post by slg » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:56 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #557

slg wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "careless" about the accusations in the article and who at Coinbase is having their life ruined by a "single thing they (allegedly) said"? It sounds like you are letting your fears of this overall issue impact how you view these specific accusations against a specific company.

The fact that my comment doesn't mention the word "Coinbase" should be a pretty strong hint that I'm referring to a general situation. What happens at one company is utterly irrelevant, but what happens in many places and in many countries is much more concerning and it also reflects on this situation and the comments.

So are you protesting against any accusations of racism regardless of the specific circumstances? Otherwise why bring up something that is only relevant in general instead of this particular situation?

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#623

Post by thu2111 » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #249

2-tpg wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not work that way (logically). Listing a 100 weak, baseless arguments is a debating tactic to confuse your opponents, not allowing them to address and debunk specifics (and if they still manage: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"). It also creates the appearance of smoke. More likely: There is a activist political trend now, that has picked up a lot of steam. In that political view, society is racist,…

>It does not work that way (logically). Maybe it doesn't work like that in high school debate clubs, but it works like that in the law. Look up concepts like circumstantial evidence and disparate impact. We can infer someone is guilty of a crime from a collection of evidence suggesting they are guilty even without direct evidence. We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discri…

We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discrimination regardless of intent to discriminate.

No. That's totalitarian and evil. If someone is not intending to discriminate, then they are not guilty of anything and should not be "punished". It's not even slightly reasonable to expect every possible way of slicing a group of people to be reflective of the average gender/race data of the overall population because people are different: that's the entire argument for diversity to begin with.

That's the basic position that is alienating so many hundreds of millions of people and convincing them this kind of activism is toxic. It's why Trump won the first time and did much better than predicted the second. It's why this thread is full of people that think the NYT is being manipulative and deceptive. You may not punish people simply for not having enough black/women employees if they haven't actually done anything to discrimate: end of story.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#624

Post by joshuamorton » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #623

slg wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It does not work that way (logically). Maybe it doesn't work like that in high school debate clubs, but it works like that in the law. Look up concepts like circumstantial evidence and disparate impact. We can infer someone is guilty of a crime from a collection of evidence suggesting they are guilty even without direct evidence. We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discri…

We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discrimination regardless of intent to discriminate. No. That's totalitarian and evil. If someone is not intending to discriminate, then they are not guilty of anything and should not be "punished". It's not even slightly reasonable to expect every possible way of slicing a group of people to be reflective of the average gender/race data…

Please respond to the actual comment made, not something you made up. No where did GP suggest that if every way you slice a group based on gender and race data isn't perfect they'll get in trouble.

They stated that discrimination, even if done without intent, is still discrimination. Please respond to that statement.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#625

Post by jonfromsf » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

o-__-o wrote: post #314

0-_-0 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police are mostly peaceful

I have an imposter! But friendly reminder that police are not your friends and you should not talk to the police unless it is absolutely necessary and even then stay tight lipped. Figure I’ll add a story about being black and driving a nice car. One day I had a flat tire and pulled into a gas station after hours to change the tire. I didn’t have a lug wrench and the kid working in the store didn’t have one either. So…

Hey sorry to derail from the larger point but I am super curious. Can you explain the registration thing to me? How does it help to be driving a car registered to someone else? I feel like that would make a cop more suspicious / be harder to explain.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#626

Post by triceratops » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #559

triceratops wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people are having their reputations destroyed and lives turned upside down because of a single thing they (allegedly) said Then perhaps you can find it in you to empathize with the black folks who are scared of the police, and can begin to understand BLM. You have something in common with them.

I continue to look out after friends and of course family and strongly believe in equal basic rights for all human beings but BLM (and other causes) are not my fight. Starting several years ago I couldn't deny any more that several groups use political correctness as a weapon to hurt others. They do not deserve my help nor empathy.

I said empathy for black people scared of the police. You really don't see the parallels?

For BLM I said "understand", not help or support.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#627

Post by thu2111 » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #624

thu2111 wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discrimination regardless of intent to discriminate. No. That's totalitarian and evil. If someone is not intending to discriminate, then they are not guilty of anything and should not be "punished". It's not even slightly reasonable to expect every possible way of slicing a group of people to be reflective of the average gender/race data…

Please respond to the actual comment made, not something you made up. No where did GP suggest that if every way you slice a group based on gender and race data isn't perfect they'll get in trouble. They stated that discrimination, even if done without intent, is still discrimination. Please respond to that statement.

And how do you define discrimination if intent doesn't matter? If decisions don't matter then the only way to define discrimination is via observed results: if you have no black employees, it must be discrimination, even if nobody ever actually discriminated in an objective way. Which means you'd be punished for not matching some theoretical demographics.

The whole notion is ridiculous. The fact that California takes this stuff so seriously just makes it look like it's throwing away its tech lead, as viewed from afar.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#628

Post by mancerayder » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:23 PM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #258

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there other non-crypto political stances Coinbase has taken? It seems to me that this was just the first time they needed such a policy. I certainly wouldn't have anticipated the possibility of a new political slogan that almost every major company is forced to chant.

Many companies regularly work within mainstream political action such as LGTBQ+ rights, data privacy, homelessness, local housing or public works, and children's orgs such as Big Brother Big Sister. While these vary in controversiality, relevancy, and apolitical nature, it's not at all uncommon to see companies working in these areas (and others unlisted). Often companies grow into them along with size and profits, s…

>The George Floyd spark very much "outed" Coinbase here, because it became an issue you couldn't avoid taking a side on.

You said this so casually. It's an axiomatic truth that everyone has to 'take a stand', implying that you have to call it out, and in a context moreover where not a single person applauded the murder of Floyd. How disingenuous for you to call it a stand, implying that there's a debate. Instead what you mean is, sign up to a calling out of the police. What betrays the problem at hand, why companies cannot feasibly all be political by nature, is that there a zillion possible social causes that one could rationally argue are impossible to call out, from shootings domestically (1100 in my city this year so far), to corporate malfeasance (sweat shops overseas, finance fraud), to foreign policy (bombings of middle eastern countries).

If you and I worked together and you stood up and demanded everyone call out the Floyd thing, outed as you call it, you and I would be debating the above points in front of everyone.

THAT is why companies should allow for an apolitical space.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#629

Post by roenxi » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

arolihas wrote: post #616

roenxi wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about the employees who were asked to be present for photo shoots to show workplace diversity but who felt ignored and talked down to during meetings? That is extremely vague. Is it a red flag? Yes. Does it imply racism? No. It doesn't even guarantee there is a problem or a systemic trend for that matter. If there are 3 red flags and some actual evidence of racism then that is one thing. But there isn't. Even…

How is it not racist to showcase your black employees for appearances and then turn around and condescend them?

You've squeezed a bit into the premise of that question. If, why and how persistently someone was ignored are very relevant questions that we have no facts on. And what the subject of the meeting was.

We know that Alysa Butler felt unappreciated. I'm hesitant to believe the NYT is even representing her opinions fairly. If you read what they've written about carefully, the article doesn't have her accusing Coinbase of any sort of racism, the NYT is just weaving her experience into a story that they construct elsewhere (normal practice in newspapers). A 'diversity problem' is different from racism. 25 year olds being ignored in meetings is not a new phenomenon either in my experience.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#630

Post by 2-tpg » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #623

slg wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It does not work that way (logically). Maybe it doesn't work like that in high school debate clubs, but it works like that in the law. Look up concepts like circumstantial evidence and disparate impact. We can infer someone is guilty of a crime from a collection of evidence suggesting they are guilty even without direct evidence. We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discri…

We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discrimination regardless of intent to discriminate. No. That's totalitarian and evil. If someone is not intending to discriminate, then they are not guilty of anything and should not be "punished". It's not even slightly reasonable to expect every possible way of slicing a group of people to be reflective of the average gender/race data…

> We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discrimination regardless of intent to discriminate.

It is scary, right? "We can also punish" hides behind the "we", unclear if they mean "We, the people, the court system" or "We, the racial justice movement, public opinion". Then what is this "punishment"? A bad article in the NYT? Calling up your network and suppliers with a 100 people (with too much time and too much anger) to cancel you for being racist? Jail time or a fine for illegal activity?

They are power hungry, totalitarian, and evil. Other comments talk of "subconscious racism" or "white privilege". This comment demands responsibility for outcomes they perceive as unjust, where it is very unjust to demand demographic parity, when it is not possible to attain that, without severely dropping in quality (there are not enough Black people in tech to fill those positions with talent). So they demand you pay/invest to increase Black people in tech. But if too vocal or direct about it, they accuse you of "stating in general that Black people are less capable" as if reasoning from racist motives. So don't look to closely at the reason for not being able to hire as much Black people as society, activist, or the board wants you to.

This activism is a very strong and dangerous and toxic meme. It leads to Qanon levels of delusion, accusing criticism of racism, so it can't be attacked. Where Qanons see the deepstate and pedophiles when looking at government or big business, these activists see a racist society and neo-Nazi's when looking at government or big business. You can't change their minds. They've been in Whatsapp groups for years, pointing out targets for collective actions, and finding counters to often used criticism. It's why no activist would use the word "Identity Politics" even though that's the animal's name (evil Neo-Nazis use that term to attack our efforts!).

So that's why you hear: reverse racism is impossible! Racism has to do with power, and whites have all the power! When nearly every white person can recount cases of being discriminated against, and how terrible it made them feel. Accused of cultural appropriation for liking rap music. Challenged by Black men for having a Black girlfriend. Chosen as victim of robbery, because perceived weak and rich. Accused of getting your promotion, not due to hard work, but because your white old boys network favored your dumb white ass over a Black deserving queen.

If this NYT article was about over-representation of not white Libertarian crypto bros, but of over-representation of Jewish people in positions of power, you'd hear a different tune. Even suggesting that clear fact labels you as anti-Semitic. Apparently white people don't have enough shared culture, shared activism, to make racist anti-male anti-white anti-autist hit pieces like this controversial, even though we supposedly run the world, actively suppress entire races and genders, and create non-inclusive companies out of principle.